Schreiber time
Nevertheless, he did deign to provide some answers, offering the committee tantalizing hints of what he promised was to come. There were several fresh allegations, of which the most explosive involved, not Schreiber’s dealings with Brian Mulroney, but Mulroney’s with Stephen Harper. Towards the end of his testimony, Schreiber claimed that Mulroney told him that Harper, at their now-famous Harrington Lake meeting in the summer of 2006, had given him some assurance the government would hold off on Schreiber’s extradition, Mulroney having first provided him with a letter from Schreiber purporting to show that they were on good terms.
Here’s the relevent section of his testimony, as best I could transcribe it. What did Mulroney promise he would do with the letter, he was asked. To take it to Harper, Schreiber answered. And what was the outcome of their meeting? “The outcome was the message was very well received.” There were no guarantees, he was told, and the courts would have to deal with the matter first, but after that the Justice minister, then Vic Toews, would look into it and “do the right thing.”
Anyway, nothing came of it; Mulroney, he concluded, had lied to him. It was “a shock,” he said, to hear Harper deny on television that he and Mulroney had had any discussions about Schreiber. Even Elmer MacKay, the former solicitor general and a friend to both Mulroney and Schreiber who apparently helped draft the letter, was “set up.”
There are many possibilities here. Maybe Schreiber’s telling the truth, and Mulroney did indeed lie to him. Maybe Mulroney never showed Harper the letter; maybe he did and Harper rebuffed him. Or maybe Mulroney thought they had a deal, when they didn’t. Maybe Harper lied to him. Maybe Harper’s lying now. Or maybe Schreiber’s making the whole thing up.
But if there were such a deal we would have a serious problem on our hands. That Mulroney was anxious to obtain such a letter is suggested by MacKay’s involvement. That Harper might wish to be reassured that Schreiber had patched things up with Mulroney is also plausible: we already knew by then about the $300,000 in cash, and it wouldn’t do to have Schreiber launching fresh accusations at the former Prime Minister. But that he would offer that the minister of justice would stay his extradition? It can’t be true.
Indeed, it's hard to square any of this with the government’s evident eagerness to pack Schreiber off to Germany at the first opportunity. But that has raised questions of its own, notably the current Justice minister’s repeated insistence in Parliament that he had no power to delay Schreiber’s extradition, just a day before offering to do just that.
Other allegations:
- that the agreement with Mulroney, which Schreiber affirmed again under oath was sealed at Harrington Lake on June 23, 1993, two days before Mulroney stpped down as PM, contemplated payments of $500,000, not $300,000. But that could perhaps have been deduced already, since it was known that Schreiber transferred $500,000 that summer into the famous “Britan” account in his favourite Swiss bank.
- that his friendship with Mulroney fell apart when he learned that Mulroney had personally killed his treasured Bear Head project, a scheme to build light armoured vehicles in Cape Breton for which Schreiber had long lobbied -- and for which he received $4 million in secret commissions from Thyssen Industries. “When I learned this was true I got so mad,” he testified. He said he and everyone involved in the project “felt like crooks to Thyssen,” having been paid on the understanding, which he said Mulroney had encouraged, that the project was a go.
All of this, as I say, was offered up at Schreiber’s whim. The questioning was haphazard and scattershot, with little in the way of followup -- there was nothing you would call a “line” of questioning. Deference was the order of the day: Schreiber was repeatedly promised the committee’s full cooperation in obtaining his precious papers. Here’s an idea: how about the committee just subpoenas them? How about requiring Schreiber’s cooperation, rather than the other way around?
I rather doubt that a witness before a Congressional committee would be allowed to play such games. At one point Schreiber was accused of “taking the fifth,” as witnesses in the US are known to do. If only that’s all it was. It’s one thing to invoke a constitutionally guaranteed protection against self-incrimination to avoid testifying. It’s quite another just to shrug that it’s inconvenient.
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Apparently it's okay to turn your country into a laughingstock if it somehow assists the Liberal Party and somehow hurts the Conservative Party.
Schreiber was repeatedly promised the committee’s full cooperation in obtaining his precious papers. Here’s an idea: how about the committee just subpoenas them?
Schreiber suggested there was something like 35,000 documents. I thought he threw in the number 85,000 at some point as well.
He mentioned, with his assistance, his lawyer Eddie Greenspan took five months to come up to speed on the complexities of his case.
Given that the Committee has no support staff (just a mismatch group of backbench MPs) what a Gong Show it truly would be if the 35,000 or 85,000 documents showed up in a truck at Parliament Hill. I know Paul Szabo was recently reconfirmed as the hardest working MP, but even this seems like a call beyond duty.
The inquiry lawyers, if/when it gets to this stage will no doubt have all or most of the relevant documents in advance through subpoena, and will sort out their probative value.
But trusting this ragtag Committee with such responsibility? No thanks.
Goodness Andrew. Not only is it wrong to "invoke the fifth" because it is convenient. It's also wrong to do it in a country ruled by something other than the US Constitution. Why do people think they are in movie-land when they do these things? Read the Constitution. Read some other laws. There is no right against self-incrimination in Canada.
You've misread the piece. I didn't say he invoked the fifth because it was convenient. I said he refused to testify because it was inconvenient.
And you are quite wrong: the Charter does protect against self-incrimination. Section 11:
"Any person charged with an offence has the right
(a) to be informed without unreasonable delay of the specific offence;
(b) to be tried within a reasonable time;
(c) not to be compelled to be a witness in proceedings against that person in respect of the offence..."
The old guy is clearly hoping for a Liberal return to power, and for revenge against Mulroney. Apparently he has been meeting with Thibault for the past few months.
Andrew: Charter s. 11(c) is not quite the same thing as a right against self-incrimination as found in the US Fifth Amendment. It is exactly what the words say: a right for a person charged with an offence not to be compelled to be a witness against himself in proceedings *with respect to that offence*.
Schreiber has not been charged with any offence, and these hearings are not in respect of any such (hypothetical) offence. Therefore, he has no right to invoke Charter s. 11(c) in these proceedings.
Actually Herb, I'd say section 11 of the Charter is pretty darn close to the Fifth Amendment, which isn't as dissimilar as you seem to suggest.
The 5th Amendment says that a person "shall (not) be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself". That's pretty darn close to Section 11's "not to be compelled to be a witness in proceedings against that person in respect of the offence".
Furthermore, to whatever minor extent there is a difference between Section 11 and the 5th Amendment, I'd say that's covered pretty well by Section 13 of the Charter, which gives even broader protection: "A witness who testifies in any proceedings has the right not to have any incriminating evidence so given used to incriminate that witness in any other proceedings, except in a prosecution for perjury or for the giving of contradictory evidence." (emphasis mine)
Seaborn, if the above (especially Section 13) does not constitute a "right against self-incrimination in Canada" as you so condescendingly imply, then what the heck would???
How can you read Section 13 of the Charter (let alone 13 AND 11) and write that "There is no right against self-incrimination in Canada"??? Even absent their subsequent expansion in case law, I'd say Sections 11 and 13 are pretty darn clear. And they DEFINITELY and EXPLICITLY consitute a right against self-incrimination in Canada.
Doesn't s.13 just say that if you say something in a proceeding it can't be used against you in a Criminal matter? So he'd have to talk, they just couldn't use it against him if he was charged with an offence (so long as he stayed silent in the criminal proceeding--if he lied on the stand they'd be able to cite his old testimony to support a perjury charge)?
Wrenkin,
Admittedly, I first grabbed it from Wikipedia because it's fast, but as far as I know my quote of Section 13 is what the Section actually says.
Here's what's on the Justice Department's Website:
"A witness who testifies in any proceedings has the right not to have any incriminating evidence so given used to incriminate that witness in any other proceedings, except in a prosecution for perjury or for the giving of contradictory evidence."
Andrew:
If there was anything of significance from his testimony, Schreiber put to rest the decade long media and Liberal conspiracy that Mulroney had received secret commissions from Airbus.
Funny that didn't appear in your executive summary, the Globe and Mail, the Fifth Estate or Don Newman's "news" show.
Lets put this together:
1. Mulroney successfuly sued the government for 2.1million because the government accused him of illegal activities related to Airbus.
2. The parliamentary committee now investigating whether that settlement should be repaid has just learned from the only man who could possibly connect the dots to support the governments allegation has told that committee in no uncertain terms that there is NO connection to Airbus.
3. Consequently, the Mulroney libel settlement stands.
4. The only person in the universe with more incentive than the CBC, Stevie Cameron, Allan Rock and the Globe and Mail to link Brian Mulroney to Airbus is Karlheinz Schreiber.
Notwithstanding his dubious character, even Schreiber couldn't make the link.
5. You need a new name for the scandal. May I suggest you call it "The very public investigation into the private life of Brian Mulroney"
On a similar note, its too bad Mulroney didn't hire Eddie Greenspan. It would be quite the show to watch Greenspan cross-examine Karlheinz Schreiber.
Anyone who followed the Conrad Black case in Chicago would remember just how good Greenspan is at exposing liars. Like Schreiber, David Radler had told several different stories under oath. In his cross-examination of Radler, Greenspan didn't disappoint:
"You spoke to your own lawyers and you lied to them," Greenspan asked.
"Those conversations were privileged," Radler answered.
"But you must have lied to them at some point," Greenspan parried.
"I wasn't totally truthful with my lawyers at the beginning of this," Radler replied. "It wasn't all lies. But there were lies."
"Do you accept that not telling the truth means you're a liar?" Greenspan continued.
"Yes," Radler said.
"You lied to most of these (government lawyers) ... the people right in front of the jury?" Greenspan asked.
"Yes," Radler said.
"You lied to the lead prosecutor, Mr. (Eric) Sussman?" Greenspan asked.
"Yes," Radler replied.
"This fellow right here, the prosecutor who took you through your evidence," Greenspan continued.
"Yes," Radler answered.
"Mr. Radler, as a self-confessed liar, how is the jury to know when you are lying?" Greenspan said
"I'm...telling them the truth now" Radler mumbled as he responded.
"Do you stumble on your words when you lie?" Greenspan asked
Radler leaned back in his chair "No".
"Do you lean back in your chair when you lie?" Greenspan pondered.
"No." Radler said as he shifted his eyes away from Greenspan.
"Do you shift your eyes when you lie Mr. Radler?"
On and on it went. Radler's credibility was destroyed.
The special counsel in the Public Inquiry would do well to follow Mr. Greenspan's example when questioning Karlheinz Schreiber.
All the old school pocket change influence peddling and fancy lawyering aside.
How is it Robert Thibault can meet in private with KHS and this doesn't affect his standing on the ethics committee?
Is not the ethics committee questioning (such as it is ) KHS under the authority of a "speakers warrant"?
Does that not make committee members "officers of the court"? Does the house ethics committee lack a code of ethics or at minimum...optics?
I must admit this whole show raises a lot of questions ?
Syncro
Surely, media people, it is only a matter of time before Schreiber is described as "a charming scamp".
His answer to the BQ MP's follow-up question as to whether he would loan her money if she needed it was priceless: looking around the room, he grinned, looked back at her again, and said: "Under the circumstances, yes!"
But the point about seizing Schreiber's papers is a good one: for all we know, the papers he removed from his house today (apparently under constant surveillance by at least the CBC) might be being ripped into small shreds by Schreiber in his jail cell this evening.
Has anyone taken up Nicholson on his suggestion to read the advice he received from his department on extradition? Susan Delacourt? When you're not to busy with your film script?
Re: self-incrimination, see http://www.canlii.org/en/ca/charter_digest/s-13.html
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Wrenkin is correct on the right against self-incrimination in Canada. It certainly exists, but it takes a different form than it does in the United States.
Schreiber has no right to refuse to give testimony to the committee. Such testimony, however, couldn't be used to incriminate him, though I'm not sure whether it could be used against him in non-criminal proceedings (e.g. immigration proceedings or civil lawsuits).
Contrary to LKO's comment above, the situation is quite different in the USA. There, a person can "take the fifth" and refuse to testify under oath in *any* proceeding (even in a deposition relating to a civil lawsuit, for example). So, at least in this respect, Canadian parliamentary committees would appear to have broader power to compel testimony than Congressional committees.... At least in theory. Good luck finding an MP sufficiently well prepared (and knowledgeable about parliamentary procedure) to use this power to any effect.
In situations like this, you might wish we had more parliamentarians with legal experience. As it stands, there are as many former lawyers on the ethics committee (Tilson, Hiebert) as former car salesmen (Del Mastro, Van Kesteren). Overall, only ~15% of MPs have legal training, while ~44% of US Members of Congress do. (Note that the UK Parliament is like Canada's, with 10-15% lawyers.)
That said, I wouldn't want to all of the blame on the individual MPs for their embarrassing performance. The lack of resources and intense party discipline under which they labour makes it extremely hard for them to do a good job on committee, with or without legal training.
Paul Szabo handled himself with dignity, restraint and more intelligence than people give him credit for in chairing the first meeting of the Commons Ethics Committee featuring Karlheinz Schreiber as star witness. Both Szabo and Pat Martin knew the police and detention officials had not allowed Schreiber the access promised in the Speaker's warrant. In other words, on the issue of answering the questions, Schreiber was right and they were wrong.
In those circumstances they had obviously decided in advance to treat Schreiber warmly and non controversially. Media commentators aren't really giving the MP's on the committee credit for playing a few games of their own. Making Schreiber feel relaxed in a fair, non hostile environment, allowed something to be salvaged from a hearing day that could have been wasted. Don't jump to the conclusion Schreiber was the only one playing psychological games and winning.
Only lawyers know how to ask questions?
Even if true, are there no lawyers within the parties that can assist in preparing the line of questioning?
Did the speaker have no control or feedback as to how his warrant was being exercised?
The committee wanted Mr Schrieber brought to the committee, they have used a very blunt and powerful instrument to do so. If they cant figure out what to do with it then it should be shut down.
If Tuesday is a repeat of the same joke process then this is going nowhere fast and the committee should abandon its attampt to fashion a frame for Mulroney, as that is their target. A little MDS (Mulroney Derangement Syndrome) one would say.
As for Schreiber Time....
You can't touch this, seems appropriate. ;-)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMzoBkaFxh4
Just on incriminating evidence, i should have been clearer. Obviously no one can be compelled to testify in proceedings where they are the accused. However, as some have pointed out, they cannot avoid responding to a question as a witness in the prosecution of someone else. If this answer includes aspects that incriminate them, it is inadmissible in a subsequent trial. the canada evidence act, s. 5:
5. (1) No witness shall be excused from answering any question on the ground that the answer to the question may tend to criminate him, or may tend to establish his liability to a civil proceeding at the instance of the Crown or of any person.
Answer not admissible against witness
(2) Where with respect to any question a witness objects to answer on the ground that his answer may tend to criminate him, or may tend to establish his liability to a civil proceeding at the instance of the Crown or of any person, and if but for this Act, or the Act of any provincial legislature, the witness would therefore have been excused from answering the question, then although the witness is by reason of this Act or the provincial Act compelled to answer, the answer so given shall not be used or admissible in evidence against him in any criminal trial or other criminal proceeding against him thereafter taking place, other than a prosecution for perjury in the giving of that evidence or for the giving of contradictory evidence.
"... But that he would offer that the minister of justice would stay his extradition? It can’t be true."
I agree, it would be improper for the Government to interfere with what is essentially a judicial process.
But why do so many in the media seem to praise (rather than to pillory) the Liberals and the NDP members when they call for exactly such interference? KHS apparently couldn't get the Conservatives to interfere on his behalf, so he has instead enlisted the aid of the NDP and Liberal Opposition members in staying his extradition.
I was very disappointed to listen to one particular news report (on CTV NewsNet), filed by one who should know better, suggesting that the extradition of KHS was an undertaking of the Conservative Government. My own understanding is that it was initiated by the German government, who have filed serious legal charges against this individual, and who asked Canada, through the Liberal government of the day, for his extradition. And that once the extradition order is before the Courts, it would be improper for any Government to tell the Courts how to manage individual cases on a whim.
As for "The Fifth", yes, I've always been told that Canadian law provides similar protections (even if not identical) to the U.S. "Fifth Amendment" (and therefore, referring to "The Fifth" is a convenient shorthand expression in Canada, too. to refer to the equivalent protections). But as has been pointed out, this is not a criminal inquiry: it is a Parliamentary hearing, and I was also always told that such matters enjoy Parliamentary Privilege.
That is, witnesses were not permitted to refuse to answer any questions, and they had to give full and truthful answers, even if such answers were self-incriminating. But that evidence could not be used against them at a subsequent criminal trial in Canada (although, clearly, it might give investigators some ideas where to look for evidence which could be used). Perhaps someone with more time could provide a more definitive answer from Marleau and Montpetit?