February 28, 2007

Liberal vs Liberal, grown-up vs child

In the continuing furor over the federal Anti-Terrorism Act, and whether to extend its most controversial features past their sell-by date, count me on the side of Jim Karygiannis. Debating the issue in the House the other day, the Liberal MP explained that “times have changed” since 2001, when the legislation was passed -- by a Liberal government, if memory serves. At that time, he said, “there was a need for reaction. We were getting pressure from all sides. The government of the United States was certainly pointing a finger at Canada...”

“However, times have changed. Yes, terrorism is here. Osama bin Laden is said to still be alive... However, the need to have investigative tactics and to take people's civil liberties away … is something that I personally never favoured and find very hard to support.”

So: terrorism is still with us, but times have changed. Just so long as no one tries any investigative tactics.

On the pro-tactics side, who should we call upon? Take your pick: John Manley, Anne McLellan, Bob Rae.… Or how about Irwin Cotler? Mr. Karygiannis is concerned about civil liberties. So, presumably, is Mr. Cotler: professor of law, director of McGill University’s Human Rights Program for nearly three decades, counsel to Nelson Mandela, Natan Sharansky, Jacobo Timmerman, not to mention Maher Arar -- in short, probably Canada’s foremost expert on civil rights. Mr. Cotler supports retaining the provisions that Mr. Karygiannis finds so troublesome. Doesn’t he realize: times have changed?

You will notice that I have enlisted only Liberals on either side of this debate, and with good reason. This is not primarily a debate between Conservatives and Liberals, or government and opposition. It isn’t even really a debate about the proper balance between security and freedom. This is a debate within the Liberal party, between its grownup wing and, well, its Karygiannis tendency.

In substantive terms, the issue has been vastly overblown. Civil liberties in Canada would not have withered away had the measures in question, limited to five years under “sunset” provisions, been extended in last night’s vote, nor will their scheduled expiry tomorrow necessarily cripple the state’s efforts to protect us from terrorist attack. It suited both sides to engineer a showdown, the better to paint the other as either soft on terrorism or drunk with power, and so instead of compromise it came to a straight up-or-down vote.

It is a sign of the oddly disembodied nature of the debate that most of the points advanced could have been made by either side -- could and were. The sunsetted provisions, it was pointed out, one allowing police to arrest suspects without warrant and hold them for up to 72 hours, the other empowering judges to compel evidence at special investigative hearings, have never been used. Ha, says one side, so they’re unnecessary! Ho, says the other, so they’ve hardly been abused, have they?

Likewise, the absence of terrorist attacks in the interim is either evidence that the threat was overblown from the start, or that, as the only one of five countries named in that famous Osama bin Laden audiotape yet to suffer the consequences, we’re due. You say the measures are unneeded, as authorities already have broadly similar powers under existing criminal code provisions? And I say: then how are these a threat? And so on.

But three further points should be made. One: neither measure grants the authorities limitless power to apprehend and question suspects. Before police can make a “preventive arrest,” they must have the written approval of the Attorney General; within 24 hours after, the suspect must be brought before a judge, who may authorize his detention for a maximum further 48 hours. Similar protections attend the investigative hearings provision. 

And of course, both are subject to the Charter of Rights -- though they might not have been, had advocates for the “notwithstanding” clause been listened to at the time. The Supreme Court’s ruling last week in the security certificates case is a reminder, not just that civil liberties may sometimes be unduly constrained in a moment of national panic, but that the rule of law continues to apply.

But, two, if the measures are not the threat to civil liberties some make out -- they are in fact quite mild, by international standards -- neither does yesterday’s vote spell their permanent extinction. It is always open to the government to reintroduce legislation granting the same authority, as no doubt it will do shortly enough, the better to depict the Liberals as feckless pantywaists.

Which makes it so inexplicable, three, why the Liberals -- some of them -- have been so eager to step into the role. Any number of possible compromises were at hand: a three-year extension, coupled with annual review of the legislation, as a Senate special committee, chock-full of Liberals, has recommended; a three-to-six month extension, to allow a more searching redrafting of the law, as Mr. Cotler has proposed;  and so on. 

The government, admittedly late in the game, embraced the Senate committee’s proposals. But by refusing to do likewise, the Liberals have left themselves, for the second time in three weeks, looking like fanatics, rejecting legislation they themselves had passed.

But then, as Mr. Karygiannis explained, times have changed.

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20 Comments

bigcitylib:

Andrew,

a compromise offered the afternoon before the vote cannot be taken seriously. As you know. And of course the Tories can resubmit a version of these provisions when they revisit the security certificate issue. As you know.

We must be close to an election.

At what point are you going to break out the charges of being soft on Child porn?

28/2/07 6:25 AM  
AC:

"It is always open to the government to reintroduce legislation granting the same authority..."

Perhaps you should read the piece first before you hit reply.

28/2/07 9:35 AM  
Calgary Junkie:

Another club for Harper to use on Dion, especially during his stump speeches. Also another motivation for the Conservative base to donate money. And what does Dion get out of it ? Some soft NDP/Green voters I guess. Oh, and Dion now gets to demonstrate more of his new-found leadership qualities in how he deals with Wappell, et al.

28/2/07 9:45 AM  
Anonymous:

AC,

Another good assessment.

We have clearly seen the enemy and he is definitely us.

The LPC has backed itself into a corner on this. The CPC can now just hit them over and over again with security measures and all Dion appears ready to say is that they are protecting Canadian's civil liberties.

How could the LPC have gotten so badly cornered on this?

Was it their intense anger at the Navdeep Bains brouhaha?

Tomm

28/2/07 9:54 AM  
bigcitylib:

Perhaps, when you choose to contradict yourself in the course of a single column, you should not put the contradictory statements in such close proximity. Specifically, that the government did not want compromise, and that they were serious about the compromise they offered in the dying minutes.

The Libs will also be out offering a new compromise, and it will look very much like the October(?) one that the Tories reneged on when this stuff was all back in committee. Harper will cry terrorist whenever he sees Liberal red, but will end up slandering someone's five year old daughter. Compromise will be reached. Tory support will remain below its 2006 election levels.

28/2/07 10:19 AM  
ET:

We have to wonder why Dion was so viciously, and I use the word with intent, opposed to this clause. Why did he feel that it MUST be rejected - to such an extent that he would brook no hint of opposition, insisting on a three-whipped vote, threatening 'his' MPs that he would not sign their nomination papers unless they obeyed Him, Him, Him.

Why? It is a fact that the Liberals themselves introduced the rule. It is hardly an abusive process, it cannot be considered an enduring infringement on civil rights. After all, it requires a within-24 hours appearance before a magistrate, with a further 48 hours retention, and, it requires testimony from individuals.

The rule enables a pre-hoc rather than post-hoc investigative process. Pre-hoc investigations are the very basic of a preventative justice program. It's all fine and dandy to wait for the murder, the bomb, the robbery, but it is far more productive to carry out preventative security rather than after-the-fact sweeping up the broken glass.

So- why did Dion focus on this with such intensity? Of course, he had no intention of accepting or working with any compromise. His agenda was complete rejection of this rule.

I don't think it's about civil rights - for they are hardly weakened by this clause. I think it's 'favours owed'. Dion owes political favours to ethnic groups - and that's what it's about. Dion has only one agenda - winning power. He has no interest in Canada or Canadians - and he's a highly manipulative person. So, this whole thing smacks of politics as usual by the Liberals.

28/2/07 11:05 AM  
KRB:

BCL, always the asshat. It was Irwin Cotler who suggested extending it for only 6 months, within which the government could've handled any opposition concerns that they had. Surely if the sky hasn't falled in the 5 years that this was law, another 6 months wouldn't hurt, would it?

And what's the suggestion? That this is a stab at human rights? If so, aren't you then admitting that the Liberal governments of Chretien and Martin were human rights abusers for keeping this law on the books during their reigns? It's just silly.

Someone else mentioned that this will spur on Conservative donations. I think so. I haven't donated to the CPC for a couple years, but I will be doing shortly.

And did anyone see Stephane Dion on The Hour last night with George Strombol-yadda-yadda? He just comes off as petulant and self-righteous. And again he was incomprehensible at certain times. And it's not as though George is anti-Liberal. I'd peg his as an NDP supporter, but who knows these things? He asked him tough questions, some that Dion was having none of. I'm sure they have the interview on their site:

www.cbc.ca/thehour

28/2/07 11:23 AM  
ET:

thanks, krb, I checked out the interview. I see that Dion's handlers are trying to 'ungeek' him; he wasn't wearing a tie - ie, the 'relaxed approach'.

What was interesting is what was lacking. Dion talks in vague generalities and future-focused ambiguities. He provides no policies, no plans, no specifics. Just general terms - He informs us that he 'will' outline his plans and how happy Canadians will be. This is the 'fish-hook' tactic; throw out an emotional lure but provide nothing for you, other than your own emotions! You, the listener, supply the 'glue' yourself; Dion has nothing to offer - other than himself as Saviour.

He talks about his triad of 'economic prosperity, social justice and a sustainable economy' - as if these agendas were not the mainstream agendas of any party and country in the world. Mr. Dion - they aren't unique; you are mouthing platitudes. Where are your policies?

The only thing he is specific about is his own plan for himself. He says, specifically, "I want to be leader of the world. I want to help the world reconcile with the planet'.

Wow. Now, that's an imperialist arrogance.

Further showing his 'hubris' and lack of humility, he absolutely refuses to acknowledge any failures in the Liberal era of power. In his view, the Liberal approach to climate change was perfect. The fact that they did zilch, nothing - he ignores. He talks about the Liberal policies AS IF they had been implemented!

And that shows us something else about Dion. His reality rests within words and the imaginary. Not actions.

His focus on himself as 'savior' is further shown by his emotional statement that he looks into 'the eyes of many Canadians' - and he sees hope...and he says that he, the Savior, doesn't want to disappoint them. Again, the arrogance of his frequent references to himself as saviour - of Canadians, of the world, of the planet.

Quite something. That's his agenda. The Saviour.

28/2/07 11:49 AM  
Kim Feraday:

Times have indeed changed. Mr. Coyne, I believe you're wrong about this not being a debate between security and freedom. Or that this is purely a debate that purely resides within the Liberal party.

The very fact there is turmoil within the Liberal caucus is a sign of a healthy democratic process -- as opposed to the autocratic approach that has defined the Conservative government.

In 2001 all Canadians were shocked by the events which transpired that led to the deaths of many innocent civilians -- some of them Canadians. More recently Canadians again were shocked by the violation of human rights by the U.S. government in the Arrar case. Times have changed and Canadians (and many Americans) are coming to the realization that such repressive measures undermine the very fabric of our democracy.

You're right civil liberties may not have withered but extending the provisions carte blanche, as the Conservatives demanded until the 11th hour, might have resulted in putting civil rights at risk. They were never used so we don't know. But in reading the provisions, it seemed to me that having an Attorney General who was open to "liberal" use of the provisions is all that we would need.

Then there's the matter of the provisions in question. While I'd agree that for the most part the Investigative Hearings provision seems to have adequate protections (although I haven't yet been able to find sections 132 and 136, which are essentially the exception clauses), the Recognizance with Hearings provision is another matter.

You're right that you can only hold someone for 72 hours before being taken before a judge. But why you don't mention that the judge can order either a suspect or a witness detained based on the evidence provided by the arresting officer. Then there's also a catchall that allows for detention for "any other just cause" (see sub-sections 6 and 7).

Given these facts I can't understand how you can so glibly dismiss the concerns over civil rights. They seem to be valid to me and extending provisions that are open to abuse in the wrong hands should be of concern and warrant thoughful consideration and debate. They shouldn't be extended just to prove we're "tough on terror".

So yes, Mr. Coyne, times have changed. Hopefully the pendulum is swinging back to a time when reason and common sense will prevail over fear and intimidation.

28/2/07 6:31 PM  
Anonymous:

Kim...

I think Syria was also responsible for violating Arrar rights.

You mention the that Arrar case shocked Canadians since 911 but fail to remind us of the 200 killed in Madrid and more recently the 50+ killed in London.

Thats of course on top of the thwarted plot to blow up planes over the Atlantic and an attempt to cause havoc here in Canada.

So tell me, what has changed?

The SCoC seems to think it is reasonable.The senate thinks it OK.Rae, Cotler think its important too.And frankly, so did the Liberals up to about 2 months ago.

While we're at it lets not bother with tightened security at airports. It's probably just toothpaste anyways.
Virtually all democracies have some sort of Anti Terror laws in place.France, Spain, UK, Norway, Greece , US, Australia.Most are "harsher" than ours were.
"Common sense will prevail" you say.
When?

David..

28/2/07 9:54 PM  
Darryl:

Kim, your comments are missing the point entirely, Mr Arrar was directly handled by the Syrian government, they did the torture or am I missing something? Mr Cotler wasn't waxing nostalgically for a simpler time when this bill was made law. Government's lead or at least they are supposed too. John Manley, Anne McLellan, all had the good sense to follow through with this legislation. You do not even attempt to address this summers bust in Toronto the good, those seventeen suspects planning to blow up parliament and behead the Prime Minister, maybe take over the CBC like you could tell...but I digress or the British detention of the suspected hijackers planning to blow up all those planes in flight across the Atlantic. Would harsh language be a better choice than detention? The terrorist's and their ilk, unfortunately only have to be successful once. The uber left wing of the Liberal party has sided with the NDP, and the Bloq. Common sense has left the building completely and it is totally disingenuous of you to raise the matter so falsely.

28/2/07 11:02 PM  
Gord Tulk:

Sorry Andrew, you have it all wrong.

The reasons for the Liberal Party and Stephane Dion's hysterical opposition to the continuation of the laws is to cover-up any investigation of various terror supporting groups that are very powerful supporters of the LP.

Johnathan Kay has the story in yesterday's post:

http://tinyurl.com/2748xj

It is a massive cover-up attempt that should bring down Dion and co. but the MSM is turning a blind eye towards it. Is it political correctness, political partisanship or poltical intimidation that is at the root of the media's complicity in this cover-up?

28/2/07 11:19 PM  
Kim Feraday:

My point was that the Arrar case has made us more aware (hopefully) that individual rights are important, something which to a degree went by the boards in the aftermath of 911. If we don't carefully consider the laws that we implement then we risk trampling the very qualities that make our society worth saving.

Neither the Senate nor Mr. Cotler thought the provisions were O.K. as they stood. Given this, I think they would agree that there is some risk of abuse the way that the provisions are currently written. That's how I perceived it when I read them.

My argument isn't that we should just let the terrorists run wild and kill as many people as they want. Your suggestion is just ridiculous. What I'm saying is that we should consider these provisions carefully, as to me, they do in fact open the door to potential abuse of civil rights.

Nothing in your arguments even addresses what I was talking about in my post. I wasn't talking about revoking the Anti-terror act (which in fact references other as mechanisms for carrying out certain actions -- security certificates being one). How about you guys going and reading the provisions and convince me that there is no risk of serious violation of civil rights.

And as far as the bust in Toronto, unless you have some information that I don't the police used standard investigative techniques to gather evidence and charge the accused. All great. Even better when the accused are tried and sentenced in a court of law. Give them the maximum sentence -- all good.

I think that Canada is the greatest country in the world. I've had the privilege of representing the country at international events. What I would hate is to diminish the qualities that make it great. That would be tragic. So again, I invite you guys to read the provisions and convince me that my interpretation is wrong. If you do then I'd be happy to retract my comments. Fear mongering won't cut it.

1/3/07 2:03 AM  
Patrick:

My argument isn't that we should just let the terrorists run wild and kill as many people as they want. Your suggestion is just ridiculous. What I'm saying is that we should consider these provisions carefully, as to me, they do in fact open the door to potential abuse of civil rights.

Nothing in your arguments even addresses what I was talking about in my post. I wasn't talking about revoking the Anti-terror act (which in fact references other as mechanisms for carrying out certain actions -- security certificates being one). How about you guys going and reading the provisions and convince me that there is no risk of serious violation of civil rights.


I'm sorry to be so blunt, but this argument is just silly.

OF COURSE tehre is the possibility of civil rights abuse. There's the POSSIBILITY of civil rights abuse in EVERY law, no matter how benign.

Using your logic, we might as well not incarcerate murderers, because at some time in the future someone MAY have their civil rights abused by SOMEONE in power.

And if YOU read the provisions, you would see that these provisions are hardly draconian.

1/3/07 5:20 AM  
Jack Ramsay:

What's wrong with the RCMP detaining people without a warrant?

1/3/07 12:59 PM  
ET:

By the way, Kim, with reference to your assertion that the disputes over Dion's refusal to extend the Security rules is a 'sign of' democracy in the Liberal party - rather than the, according to you, 'autocratic approach' of the Conservatives.

You have a strange definition of democracy and autocracy. If you can define Dion's 'three-whipped vote', and his insistence that all MPs must show up, must vote as he says, or, else there will be 'sanctions' against them - as democracy - well, that's quite remarkable. I consider it autocracy. And Harper doesn't behave that way - provide proof.

Second, as others have pointed out, kindly get your facts straight. The US did not violate Arar's human rights. I hope you said that in error and not within a juvenile anti-Americanism.

These security rules do not put civil liberties at risk. Terrorism, however, does, and terrorism is a fact, not something you see in films.

You know, I always shudder when anyone says that 'X' is the greatest country in the world - whether that X is Canada or whatever. It shows such an isolationism, such an arrogance. Canada has lots of problems, as do other countries - and lots of benefits, many of which are based on the fact that we are an extremely small population whose economy is piggybacked onto the world's greatest economy. That is - things are fine, but it's not all due to us, us, us. We have to thank others as well.

1/3/07 3:21 PM  
gwgm:

KIM said "... extending provisions that are open to abuse in the wrong hands should be of concern and warrant thoughful consideration and debate."

I get it now. That's what this is all about. Liberals = "good hands".... CPC = "wrong hands".

These aren't bad laws, per se. They're only bad when the scary Conservatives are in charge.

Why don't you just come out and say it? Maybe do a commercial with ominous background music and a Harper look-alike torturing some guy under a bright light in a small room....

You Liberals make me laugh.

1/3/07 10:40 PM  
UBC:

It's almost sad to watch the daily beating Dion takes in the house at the hands of a real leader, AKA Stephen Harper. It's almost sad the way in which the Senate and a bunch of other Liberals like Manley and McLellan supported extending the measures while poor Stephane opposed for lame partisan reasons. It's almost sad that poor Michael Ignatieff outshines his leader every day but can't actually BE the leader.

Almost.

Bring on the election. PMSH is here to stay!

2/3/07 1:44 AM  
Scott Blurton:

Hi Andrew, love your column, especially on the so-called fiscal imbalance. However, there is an error in the column you wrote above. In the above column you wrote, "Before police can make a “preventive arrest,” they must have the written approval of the Attorney General." This is correct if the peace officer lays out the information before the judge to get permission to bring the suspect before the court (83.3.2 and 83.3.3). However, if the peace officer believes that a terrorist attack is eminent, or that the detainment of suspect is necessary to stop a terrorist attack, then the police officer can arrest the suspect without a warrant. Furthermore, the judge can order the individual, based on the evidence presented, to up to a year in prision, without the suspect having the ability to cross-examine the evidence due to reasons of national security. Thus the preventative arrest provision does contain some dangers to civil liberties, necessitating further safeguards.

4/3/07 1:24 PM  
AC:

Testing again...

6/3/07 11:08 AM