March 10, 2007

Stéphane Dion, tax-cutter?

If the Conservatives can steal the environment away from the Liberals, can the Liberals steal taxes back from the Conservatives?

Stranger things have happened in politics. And in an intriguing speech to a business audience by Stéphane Dion, we may have seen the first glimmer of a Liberal comeback strategy....

Certainly the party needs to do something to regain its balance, after several weeks of shrill grandstanding on a number of issues -- on Kyoto, Afghanistan, anti-terrorism, to name just three -- that have positioned the Grits somewhere to the left of Maude Barlow. It takes some doing to make Stephen Harper look like the moderate in the bunch, but the Liberals have managed it: having decided they no longer wished to be the party of soulless pragmatists, they appear to have concluded the only alternative was to drop out and join a commune.

It’s probably too late to reverse those ill-advised stands: you just expose yourself to charges of waffling. If the party is to regain credibility with centrist and centre-right voters -- the people who put it in office, and kept it there, through four elections -- it will have to do something dramatic: not just edge back towards the centre, but reach right across it.

Could taxes be the issue that allows the Liberals to break out of their self-imposed marginalization? Admittedly, it’s unlikely, given their record, but no more unlikely than the Tories as latter-day environmentalists. And taxes are the kind of scaffold issue that other issues can be hung from. If he is skillful, Mr. Dion could use taxes to give concrete form to doubts about the prime minister’s performance, turning what was hitherto viewed as Mr. Harper’s strength into a weakness.

Because Mr. Harper’s performance on taxes has been anything but conservative -- a source of great unease to his supporters, even if these misgivings have thus far been suppressed. The two-point GST cut was roundly denounced by free-market economists, and rightly so. It isn’t just that cutting income taxes is preferable to cutting consumption taxes, as if one were expressing a liking for apple pie over cherry. It is that the one precludes the other. The nearly $12-billion that the GST cut will cost the treasury every year has ruled out significant income tax cuts for years to come, even as the productivity gap between Canada and the U.S. grows. (Or never mind the U.S.: the Irish are now richer than we are. Ireland!)

On top of which, the welter of special-interest tax credits with which Mr. Harper’s government has seen fit to litter the tax laws drives us still further from the kind of simple, neutral tax system that conservatives are supposed to favour. Even the one praiseworthy tax change the Tories have introduced, equalizing the tax treatment of income trusts and ordinary corporations, was sullied by the breaking of an explicit election promise to the contrary.

So listen carefully to Mr. Dion’s speech to the Canadian Club in Ottawa earlier this week. In it, he took dead aim at the GST cut: “There is scarcely an economist on the planet who supports this approach. From the IMF to the OECD, from the Fraser Institute to the government's own Finance Department -- all have clearly said that lower income tax, not lower GST, is the right way to go.”

“Taxes have a powerful impact on people's behaviour,” Mr. Dion said, sounding like a supply sider. “If you cut the GST, you encourage consumption. On the other hand, if you cut income tax, you encourage Canadians to save and invest, increasing our productivity.”

“As prime minister, I would not cut a second point from the GST. Instead, I would help grow the economy by ensuring that income taxes are low and that taxes on business and investment are competitive,” Mr. Dion said.

True, that’s about as specific as it got. But if Mr. Dion is serious, he has a large opening available to him. By forgoing the second point of the GST cut, he would have enough revenue to cut five points off of each of the top two brackets. Rescind the first, and Canadians could pay just two rates of federal tax: a bottom rate of 15.5%, and a top rate of 20%.

And that’s not the only revenue Mr. Dion has available to him. End Mr. Harper’s giveaways to the provinces, in the name of the fictional “fiscal imbalance,” and more of that revenue could go back into taxpayers’ pockets. Simplify the tax code, ridding it of all those narrowly targeted preferences and gimmicky tax credits, and you'd collect the same revenues at a lower rate of tax. Tax carbon and other environmental blights to discourage their consumption, and you could lighten the tax burden on income still further -- yet in a way that would still appeal to NDP and Green voters.

We will need to hear much more from Mr. Dion on this subject. Vague references to keeping taxes “low” or “competitive” will not be enough. But specific, costed proposals for deep cuts in income tax rates -- from the Liberals, of all people -- would turn the coming election upside down.

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49 Comments

Anonymous:

AC,

It doesn't seem very likely that Dion can jump over Harper on this issue.

It may be a two or three year issue if Dion speaks and acts consistently he may be able to bring some fiscal conservatives over to his camp given a PMSH that throws money around and complicates tax cuts rather than simplifying them.

I still can't imagine Harper actually raising taxes, so I do not suggest that might be a scenario that Dion could exploit.

Tomm

10/3/07 2:19 AM  
orval:

If only Liberals had not so brazenly broken their toxic "kill the GST" Red Book promise of 1993, this approach might have a scant chance of success. A Liberal promise now to lower income taxes and pay for it by raising the GST will achieve only ridicule for the Liberals. I can imagine the Conservative ad:

Chretien in 1993: Da GST? I will kill it!

Dion in 2008: I will raise the GST. Higher consumption taxes are good for Canada!

Conservative message (Flaherty): We are the real tax-cutters. And that means all taxes, income and consumption.

Fair or not, the Liberals have no credibility on GST. No-one will believe their BS. This is not their yellow brick road back to power.

10/3/07 6:06 AM  
Mike Moffatt:

"Tax carbon and other environmental blights to discourage their consumption, and you could lighten the tax burden on income still further -- yet in a way that would still appeal to NDP and Green voters."

It sounds like AC is trying to become a member of the Pigou Club. I hope Terence Corcoran doesn't find out about his heresy.

10/3/07 9:21 AM  
Anonymous:

I think AC has a very interesting point, and I would caution against dismissing the Liberals as tax cutters / managers of the economy.

Chretien did the same thing with Preston Manning, who was a strong advocate for debt reduction and lower taxes - only to have the Liberal execute the strategy within a credible policy framework (the Red Books).

Many Liberal voters are unsure about Dion as he lacks experience or a coherent policy framework. As he begins to build these things, I think many long-time Liberal voters may return to the fold.

10/3/07 9:44 AM  
ET:

I question the assumptions.

Why does a cut to the GST 'encourage consumption', but a cut to income taxes 'encourages savings and investment'.

The fact that the GST operates within the act of consumption while the 'more income' acts prior to the act of consumption doesn't mean that the money is saved rather than spent.

And, the Conservatives are cutting both GST and income taxes - and capital gains taxes. That latter is an important area requiring reform, an area that the Liberals don't seem to be interested in. It is the high capital gains taxes that reduce the capacity for investment in our country. Not individual income taxes.

The Conservative plan to reduce capital gains taxes as long as the money was re-invested in Canada - is an important issue.

10/3/07 11:04 AM  
Sean:

The difference between income and sales tax is WAY OVERBLOWN! So Dion says income taxes encourage savings and investment? The logic is weak.

Chew on this logic. If you encourage consumption by taxing sakes less, this increases sales and business activity, which increases business profits, which increases investments in productivity. The main difference is that businesses choose where to put the money as opposed to individuals, and in many cases individuals will put them into things that have little to do with productivity, when they buy new televisions and windsurfers. So to blindly assert that taxing consumption is better is a crock. Taxing consumption discourages business activity which is the lifeblood of our society.

If you tax consumption, you take money out of the hands of business people, which lowers business profits, drives some businesses into receivership, and kills jobs.

Taxing income means that you take money out of the hands of everyone, many of whom contribute little to producticity and investment. For others, such taxes do discourage savings and investment, which lowers future business activity, but taxing incomes affects existing businesses very little.

The example of Ireland is also a complete fraud. Ireland has low corporate taxes. Irish sales taxes and income taxes remain quite high. Their income taxes are higher than Canadian income taxes. Their economic success comes from taxing businesses less, not taxing incomes less.


The fact is, any tax removes money from the economy, money that would circulate in unpredictable ways. The US economy flourishes with low income taxes, low sales taxes and high corporate taxes. Ireland flourishes with high income taxes, high sales taxes and low corporate taxes. France has high productivity despite taxing the heck out of everything.

Simple blanket statements declaring some taxes so much better than others are pointless. Economists have little understanding of the difference between taxing consumption and taxing incomes.

10/3/07 11:23 AM  
Mike Moffatt:

"Simple blanket statements declaring some taxes so much better than others are pointless. Economists have little understanding of the difference between taxing consumption and taxing incomes."

Gee, you think that we'd learn something after studying the issue for over a hundred years. But I guess not.

The deadweight loss associated with income taxes has been show to be much larger than on sales taxes time and time again. That's why the community of professional economists in Canada had such a fit when Harper canceled the Liberal income tax cut and replaced it with a cut in the GST.

My take on it was here: http://economics.about.com/od/thefairtaxproposal/a/canada_gst.htm

but dozens of economists that people have actually heard of said pretty much the same thing as well.

10/3/07 12:22 PM  
Anonymous:

The Liberals' own internal polling from a few months ago showed that almost nobody believes anything thet say anymore. So its back to Plan A for Dion--demonize Harper, scare-monger about what he would do with a majority, rely on the special interest groups to join in the chorus. And hope like hell for "good stuff" like lots more dead soldiers, a long hot summer, an economic downturn, a Parti-Quebecois victory. It's pitiful, but it's all that Dion realistically has.

Calgary Junkie

10/3/07 12:22 PM  
biff:

"IF DION IS SERIOUS" ????

He voted to comply with Kyoto.

No one who has any credibility believes we can practically comply.

And he gave the CPC sixty days to find a solution (after the Libs failed over a number of years). He might as well have passed a law ordering Harper to increase the size of the moon.

Why exactly, Andrew, would voters take Dion seriously after he made a mockery of his own signature issue???

He is perhaps the most unserious leader the Liberals have had in a generation.

It is also rather disappointing that you continue to give him the benefit of a doubt that appears to be long gone.

10/3/07 1:34 PM  
Sean:

Mike Moffat: "Gee, you think that we'd learn something after studying the issue for over a hundred years. But I guess not."

Many more people have been studying the stock market for over a hundred years and it's easy to see how perfectly we all understand stock market behaviour now.

Keynesian economics was in the vogue for decades, supported by nearly all economists in the world, and still lingers today despite being utterly discredited.

Meteorologists have been studying the weather for centuries, yet are still unable to predict the weather beyond a period of two weeks with any reasonable accuracy.

So please excuse my disbelief that this issue is settled. The flow of capital in an economy is an extremely complicated and sophisticated problem that has never been sufficiently studied in the academic world. Any serious follower of economics would admit this.

Your article is a good one, particularly since it references studies and not just editorials. But economists have devised numerous economic measurements over the years and the MEC is just one of them, and it is hardly the final word on the issue. Trying to base the final word of such a complex issue on a single measurement such as MEC does not fly.

Economists can hardly agree on anything, let alone such complex issues on this.

And that is my point.

10/3/07 2:18 PM  
Mike Moffatt:

"Economists can hardly agree on anything, let alone such complex issues on this."

Economists, as a group, agree on far more than they disagree on. It's what economists disagree on that is interesting, and gets all the attention, for the same reason they don't write news articles about flights that don't crash.

For what public policy issues economists do and do not agree on see:

Do Economists Agree on Anything? Yes!
http://www.bepress.com/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1156&context=ev

"Keynesian economics was in the vogue for decades, supported by nearly all economists in the world, and still lingers today despite being utterly discredited."

Keynesian economics was never "utterly discredited". There was a lot in Keynesian economics that was correct and still exists in some forms today in modern macro. The parts that were incorrect or incomplete have evolved over the last few decades, as all sciences naturally do. A lot of work by people seen as opponents of Keynesian though, such as Milton Friedman, build on the man's work. Brad DeLong had a terrific piece about the two:

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2006/11/29/story_29-11-2006_pg3_5

"So please excuse my disbelief that this issue is settled. The flow of capital in an economy is an extremely complicated and sophisticated problem that has never been sufficiently studied in the academic world."

Of course the issue isn't settled. But that hardly means we know nothing or we have "little understanding".

10/3/07 2:57 PM  
Sean:

Most of Keynesian economics has been discredited. Most economics done today is a rejection of Keynesian economics, not an evolution of it, in the same way that communism did not evolve from capitalism but instead was a rejection of capitalism. One of the main tenets, that government spending be used as a tool to "stimulate" an economy, has been discredited. If spending is directed at strategic infrastructure, it may have economic value in relation to the opportunity cost of directing the money elsewhere. But spending as a tool in itself has little economic benefit. In fact, many people believe today that excess government intervention in the economy exacerbated the Great Depression, and this intervention was prescribed by Keynesian economics.

Instead, the opposite is accepted today, that instead of using government revenue to stimulate an economy, revenues should be returned to the populace in the form of tax cuts to stimulate growth. Tax dollars returned to a taxpayer can no longer be spent by the government, so you can't have it both ways.

On the issue of consumption taxes vs sales taxes, we do have little understanding.

I must admit, you are armed with interesting links to support your arguments. But using links is equivalent to using anecdotal evidence. Economics is in many ways a science, not a popularity contest. Science is verified by experimentation, not by consensus.

10/3/07 3:36 PM  
AC:

The notion that economists disagree all the time is one of the strangest myths going. As Mike says, in fact most economists agree most of the time, particularly on microeconomic issues. The famous mid-century disagreements were almost always about macro.

I once saw it put this way. Economists are mostly agreed on the matters they know most about -- issues like trade, rent controls, minimum wages -- where their advice is almost routinely ignored. They disagree most on the issues they know least about, like where the economy is going or how to make it go faster -- where they are consulted like oracles.

10/3/07 3:36 PM  
Sean:

AC: Yes, well the primary issue with an economic theory is not so much the consensus but the logic, the evidence, the experimentation, and the reality that is backing the consensus.
Friedman gained a lot of popularity when his theory that unemployment and high inflation were not mutual trade-offs was validated by the economic experience of the 1970s. Predicting reality reliably gained him a lot of followers.
Many of the macroeconomic theories are backed by flimsy evidence it seems, but that does not stop them from gathering popularity amongst economists.
Yes, I agree, economists are treated like oracles regarding issues they know little about. I guess it's because so many people are looking so hard for the answers.

10/3/07 3:54 PM  
Mike Moffatt:

"Tax dollars returned to a taxpayer can no longer be spent by the government, so you can't have it both ways."

The two views, are not, in fact, contradictory.

The idea that there's a deadweight loss from taxation is not at all a new one, and it proceeds Keynes by decades. I'm not an expert of the history of economic thought, but I do know that a graphical representation of the deadweight loss from taxation appears in Cournot (1838). I wouldn't be surprised if the concept is older than that, but again, I'm not an expert in these matters.

The idea Keynes put form was about priming the pump, a.k.a. a short term stimulus to demand. The idea that "revenues should be returned to the populace in the form of tax cuts to stimulate growth" is a statement about long-run progress. The two are easily reconcilable, though that doesn't imply that they're both correct. Overall, though, it seems strange to assert that Lord Keynes wouldn't be aware of the costs to society imposed by taxation.

"On the issue of consumption taxes vs sales taxes, we do have little understanding."

Do you have anything to back up this assertion whatsoever? Just because you keep saying it, doesn't make it true.

10/3/07 3:58 PM  
angry quebecois separatiste:

denmark has one of the highest tax rate in the world.

Recently a survey showed that danish are the happiest people in Europe.

Relation?

10/3/07 4:09 PM  
Ace:

Denmark, like Quebec also has one of the highest suicide rates in the world. Is there a relationship there?

10/3/07 6:20 PM  
ET:

There's a brief article on the issue of the VAT, the value added or consumption tax versus income taxes - and the conclusion is that it doesn't stimulate saving.

The comparison was a 1990 study of 23 countries. Ken Militzer and I. Ontscherenki. In Business Economics April 1990.

10/3/07 7:41 PM  
nomdeblog:

Yes the Danes are a lot happier than they used to be because they’ve had a Conservative PM for the last 5 years.

After decades of abysmal economic performance due to excessive socialism, the PM is cutting taxes and cutting all the Tuborg gulping hippies off of welfare. The Danes have had enough of handouts to the sloths and it seems to be working with unemployment down to about 4% versus France still at double digit ( that may potentially change in France too if Sarko the Conservative gets elected ) .

Oh and the Danish PM is great friend of Bush’s, Denmark participated in the coalition in Iraq.

10/3/07 10:30 PM  
Gord Tulk:

Andrew, you seem to be talking out of both sides of your mouth on this topic:

1. GST or income tax cuts both encourage savings because they put more disposable income into the consumer/saver's hands.

While your column implies that a lower GST makes things cheaper and thus people will buy more (a "beer and popcorn" argument) it can be similarly argued that lower income taxes provide less of an incentive for Canadians to defer taxes by putting more savings into RRSPs - something that I and many other financial advisors can attest to be happening here in low tax juristictions like AB.

(also Lower GST rates reduce GST tax avoidance - something very few economists take into account.)

2. You say "Simplify the tax code, ridding it of all those narrowly targeted preferences and gimmicky tax credits, and you'd collect the same revenues at a lower rate of tax." and then immediately recommend to recomplicate it far more when you say "Tax carbon and other environmental blights" which would require massive new bureaucracies to be created.

3. And since, as you have argued in other column condemning corporate taxes (on which I agree with you) as being a tax on the shareholders not the company, your assertion that to "Tax carbon and other environmental blights to discourage their consumption ... you could lighten the tax burden on income still further" completely contradicts the 'there is only one taxpayer' premise of your previous columns.

....

The fiscal imbalance is real - the feds take in more money than they spend on programs that are federal juristiction.

Reducing the federal tax rates to make room for the provinces so that they can assume responsibility and full accountibility for these federally funded provincial responsibilities makes sense.

....

The Conservative Party and Stephen Harper at their core are philosophically in favour of lower taxation. They believe that individuals are the best decision makers when it comes to things such as how to raise their children and that by reducing the financial burden of government on them as much as possible is the key to long-term prosperity and liberty.

The liberals and all of the other parties that inhabit the left-side of the political spectrum do not share this philosophy. Stephane Dion's totalitarian attitude vis-a-vis the Canadian Wheat Board is a very fresh example of this.

And Canadians know who they can trust on this issue.

10/3/07 10:52 PM  
Angry Quebecois Separatiste:

nomdeblog: socialism and good economic performance are not mutually exclusive.

The scandinavian countries are exactly in that position. I admire them a lot. They combine socialism and capitalism to mix them in an efficient way.

BTW, left and right is always relative to the center of the particular country. Denmark is at rank #2 as tax revenue as % of GPD after sweden. The VAT is at 25% there.

An independant Quebec will be the same, it will combine socialism and capitalism for better result.

11/3/07 12:20 AM  
Anonymous:

I don't really see how the Liberals can go from whining that the Conservatives raised taxes to the poorest of taxpayers, to cutting taxes by billions of dollars to what they term the richest of taxpayers. That's not the trial balloon they've been floating (which is to claim credit for a tax cut which never saw the floor of the House).

Never mind that the Liberals don't think of those who fall below the lightest tax bracket as taxpayers. And never mind that they typically only see the higher brackets as a funding source for their latest get-rich-quick schemes.

As for the suggestion about "centre-right voters -- the people who put it in office, and kept it there, through four elections" - I disagree. Sure, those voters may have put M. Chretien in power over Ms. Campbell. But the vote splitting on the right is what kept the Liberals in power, not the Liberal policies.

11/3/07 1:39 AM  
Mike Moffatt:

"The comparison was a 1990 study of 23 countries. Ken Militzer and I. Ontscherenki. In Business Economics April 1990."

It's a good paper, but it's hard to draw any strong conclusions from cross-country comparisons in economics, due to the presence of so many confounding factors.

There are a few difficulties with the Militzer and Ontscherenki paper. First of all, their sample size for the non-VAT side of the equation is effectively one: THe United States.

There's a huge problem with causality in the paper. Their basic premise is that countries who adopt a VAT tend to high tax jurisdictions. But it doesn't imply that adopting a VAT will cause overall tax levels to rise.

They do show the tax-levels 10 years after the adoption of a VAT. The difficulty is, for most European countries, a VAT was adopted around 1969, so you're comparing 1969 to 1979. Tax rates went up enormously all over the world during the 1970s, both in countries that adopted VATs and those that didn't. Since the sample size of the paper is so absurdly small, this skews the results tremendously.

If you look at countries which have adopted the VAT since 1980, their overall tax levels have in fact decreased, largely thanks to Japan and Canada.

The issue has a near-universal consensus among professional economists that income taxes are a larger drag on the economy than VATs. While studies such as Militzer and Ontscherenki are important, they don't invalidate everything we know about taxation, as Card and Krueger didn't invalidate everything we know about the minimum wage.

"Tax carbon and other environmental blights" which would require massive new bureaucracies to be created."

That's not true. People talk about carbon taxes as if they're a new thing, but they've existed since 1923 in Canada, when they were adopted by Manitoba and Alberta (yes, Alberta!) We already tax carbon, in the form of excise taxes on gasoline and jet fuel. These taxes could be raised without creating a single new job opening in the bureaucracy.

11/3/07 9:18 AM  
nomdeblog:

AQS, no, socialism is just communism with a vote, it doesn’t work anywhere. As my Chinese accountant keeps telling me, even China is more capitalist than Canada.

Socialism appears to be working in Norway but they are propped up with oil just like the fascists in the Middle East.

Sweden just elected a PM who got his MBA in the USA and where he was a partner in a Venture Capital firm in Connecticut. Some say that if you adjust unemployment in Sweden by taking out the artificial make-work-programs that real unemployment is 20%, hence the new capitalist PM.

You’re right Denmark still has a long way to go on taxes but it has turned the corner, I’ve been going there for over 2 decades and the improvement in the economy under the conservative PM is amazing. Part of what doesn’t show up in the taxes that you mention is that the entrepreneurs that are driving the economy have registered themselves in Switzerland and don’t pay Denmark’s outrageous taxes, yet their brains and innovation have remained in Denmark. The Danish government still has to lower taxes and it will, particularly if Sarko gets elected and implements his promise to drop France’s corporate tax rate to 25%. Every smart leader knows .. the economy is about corporate taxes.

AQS, you are about to see a return to the Union National conservatism without the corruption. A coalition of Charest and Mario will be the best thing that could happen to Quebec and you’ll be well underway with solving your socialist problems discussed in Bouchard’s Manifesto.
Bonne Chance!

But sure, we’ll always “combine socialism and capitalism”; because the government runs 42% of our GDP. The question is, can we stop the growth of government intervention in our lives and can we deal with the fiscal imbalance and go back to the BNA act?

Gord Tulk, I agree “Reducing the federal tax rates to make room for the provinces so that they can assume responsibility and full accountibility for these federally funded provincial responsibilities makes sense.”



Mike Moffatt, agreed , we could add a carbon tax to consumers because the only way to impact usage is to get the price up to a point where people change their consumption … PROVIDED … that a commensurate reduction in income taxes and/or GST takes place.

11/3/07 9:27 AM  
AC:

Actually, it doesn't have to be a carbon tax, per se. In Britain, they're talking about issuing personal carbon credits, just like the ones for large corporations. You'd be given a carbon credit card, which you'd use alongside your real credit card. When you paid at the filling station, for example, you'd draw down both.

There's no reason you couldn't allow people to buy and sell these -- on eBay, perhaps -- in the same way and for the same reason that large emitters do: to ensure the most efficient allocation of the burden of adjustment, encouraging those who can reduce their emissions at least cost to take on more than their share.

To prevent windfall gains, you'd probably want the government to charge for the cards, rather than just give them out for free. As with a carbon tax, the revenues could be used to cut income taxes.

Why prefer tradeable credits to carbon taxes? With a carbon tax, you have to guess how many additional percentage points of tax will achieve what reduction in emissions. Whereas with the credits, you just dial in the required reduction, and the market figures out the price that will get you there.

11/3/07 12:07 PM  
nomdeblog:

Ahhh… carbon credits. It seems so simple that I’m surprised DeYawn didn’t implement it instead of wasting a decade. Maybe he can be like Gore, when he loses the next election he can go off and set up a trading company.

More seriously, I think carbon credits are worth exploring. I believe in user pay, ditto … abuser pay. The key is to make it Revenue Canada neutral.

At first, an allotment sounds like rationing which could lead to food stamp fiascos and black markets. But if we set up a legitimate regulated market at the outset, it might work.

Whatever we do, Conservatives must avoid a déjà vu of Mulroney’s GST, which all accountants agreed was logical tax versus manufacturing tax. Yet Conservatives paid heavily politically for GST because the offsetting benefits never got quantified in consumers’ minds. I suspect that is why the Liberals never implemented anything on CO2, it all sounds good to an academic but as a practical implementation, it’s a very difficult to sell.

Let’s work on it and run the next election campaign on it … in 2009.

11/3/07 1:42 PM  
Mike Moffatt:

"Why prefer tradeable credits to carbon taxes? With a carbon tax, you have to guess how many additional percentage points of tax will achieve what reduction in emissions. Whereas with the credits, you just dial in the required reduction, and the market figures out the price that will get you there."

That's one of the important points in the debate that is often lost. I wish the media would pick up on this more.

In the absence of full information, the government cannot be sure of all the impacts a policy will have. They can either set the price for carbon and let the market figure out the quantity, or set the quantity of carbon and let the market figure out the price.

Personally, I'd rather get the price set than the quantity. Should the government set unrealistic goals for the quantity, the price of carbon could spiral out of control, imposing a great deal of cost to the economy. By setting the price instead, you set an upper bound on the economic impact.

There are really good arguments to be made both ways. I have a preference for the carbon tax, but both have their merits. Markets, not governments, should determine how emissions are cut; both policies do just that.

I like the idea of carbon credit cards, but the compliance costs could be huge. First you need a government agency to distribute the cards. Then the need to make sure that nobody is hacking the system, getting more carbon credits for free. Then gas stations, etc., need to install readers for the cards. Finally, people have to take the time out of their busy schedule to go to eBay and buy more credits. The potential compliance costs are huge. If we instead increase already existing carbon taxes, the net increase in compliance costs is near zero.

An international carbon trading market, though, is likely superior to a single-country tax regime for carbon, since then emissions can be cut wherever in the world it is cheapest to do so.

Oddly enough, I'm giving 4 lectures at Ivey on this very topic next week. I'm procrastinating finishing my Powerpoint slides by posting this message.

11/3/07 1:52 PM  
nomdeblog:

Mike

If you haven’t seen it already I’d suggest you have a look at this before your lectures;


Here’s UK Channel 4’s decidedly non-PC documentary, The Great Global Warming Swindle.

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=24760_The_Great_Global_Warming_Swindle&only

It’s an 1:15 long but well worth it, even if you only watch the first half.

At first I found it a bit hilarious that we’ve been so misinformed about climate change. Then as I found how much propaganda has taken over the subject, it becomes a bit worrisome in a Goldfinger conspiracy sort of way. You might recognize a couple of Canadian Profs who make excellent contributions ...Tim Ball from U of W and Ian Clark from Ottawa.

I still think we should err on the side of trying to do something about CO2 if only because we’ve lost the propaganda war and if we don’t get control of it, we’ll end up redistributing wealth to those that are benefiting from the hysteria, as ususalthe real loser will be those at the bottom of the food chain.

11/3/07 5:01 PM  
Mike Jr:

"An independant (sic) Quebec will be the same, it will combine socialism and capitalism for better result." - Angry Quebecois Separatiste

Don't forget cocaine! You separatists have tied your election hopes on an immature idiot (Bush/Harper cowboy skit) who used a rather hard drug while in Cabinet. Irresponsible on Boisclair's part, as well as each of the Pequistes who voted for him.

"Let us be English, let us be French, above all let us be Canadian." John A. MacDonald may have been a drunk, but he had the good sense to build a country that was inclusive, seeking to unite Canadians.

Rather than building a country based on uniting people, the PQ wishes to build a country on a racist sense of superiority.

Though the PQ recognized Aboriginal nations within Quebec in 1985, and the natives voted 96% in favour of remaining in Canada if Quebec separated, the self important Parti Quebecois (ethnic roots are in the name,) would not recognize these Aboriginal nations exercising the very same right of self-determination they wish to exercise to leave unilaterally.

If the PQ's Cocaine Cowboy can explain why Quebec is more indivisible than Canada, and why people need to listen to the Quebecois and ignore those silly Aboriginal referenda. They're all ethnic votes anyway.

P.S.
If he uses the "Quebec joined as one..." argument, he needs to better acquaint himself with the history of his own province, as the Aboriginal land in question was not part of Quebec in 1867.

11/3/07 5:42 PM  
Sean:

Mike Moffatt:

Me: "On the issue of consumption taxes vs sales taxes, we do have little understanding."

You: "Do you have anything to back up this assertion whatsoever? Just because you keep saying it, doesn't make it true."

You have presented me with the logical fallacy of negative-proof.
http://www.answers.com/topic/negative-proof
http://wiki.cotch.net/index.php/Shifting_the_Burden_of_Proof

If you state that there is a strong understanding of something, it does not fall upon me to prove you wrong, it falls upon you to prevent evidence, and for me to challenge and debate the evidence, which is what I have been doing.

In presenting your proof, I would advise you to use or refer to empirical studies or real-world examples, instead of editorials, anecdotes and surveys of individuals. You might also wish to debate point number 1 above by Gord Tulk.

The fact that a lot of people agree on something does not make it true. This is another fallacy that you employ with regularity, the fallacy of "consensus".
http://wiki.cotch.net/index.php/Bandwagon_Fallacy

I do not make a definitive statement about this topic, because I am aware that there have been very few empirical studies or real-world examples examining this issue. There is only a number of conjectures and theories, and a small number of studies. An example is your presentation of MEC measurements, whose usefulness or accuracy has not been validated by any experimentation or real-world verification.

There are few studies. Of the existing studies, some have dubious value.

So I have a suspicion that in reality, there is very little real difference whether income taxes or sales taxes are deducted, because in most cases the bottom line remains the same.

11/3/07 5:53 PM  
Mike Moffatt:

"There are few studies."

You mean other than the 923 studies identified on JStor that examine both VATs and income taxes?

"Of the existing studies, some have dubious value."

How do they have dubious value? In what way?

Look, you've made a number of assertions here with no evidence. The number of studies on the issue is something that can be verified. You've asserted that there's "few", without providing any evidence for that whatsoever.

"The fact that a lot of people agree on something does not make it true. This is another fallacy that you employ with regularity, the fallacy of "consensus"."

I brought it up because you said that "[e]conomists can hardly agree on anything". I showed that, in fact, according to a recent study, they often do. Yes, I'm aware it's only one study. But for reasons I don't entirely understand, when you make an assertion that economists can hardly agree on anything, it's up to me to verify your claim. Or something like that.

I'm happy to discuss this matter with people who are genuinely interested in the subject. I'm particularly interested in being pointed to studies I'm unaware of or learning something I didn't already know. I have zero interest in trying to "win" a debate on the internet. So this is my last word on the subject.

11/3/07 7:25 PM  
Sean:

You are correct, I am not interested in putting forth evidence that the existing studies are inconclusive and/or insufficent.

"I have zero interest in trying to "win" a debate on the internet."

Really?!! OK, my mistake, I thought otherwise.

11/3/07 9:05 PM  
hosertohoosier:

Firstly, I am not sure how Dion plans to fund substantial tax reductions, given that his Kyoto plans alone will cost about 20 billion for the purchase of transfer credits.

Secondly, the notion that income taxes are better because the don't put money in the hands of poor people doesn't capture the basis behind the substantial increases in consumer spending as a share of income. Let us ask, since 1981 what have people been spending more money on?
http://www.statcan.ca/english/freepub/75-001-XIE/10604/art-2.pdf

Statscan says people are spending less on food, clothing and furniture/furnishings, household equipment and maintenance.

They are spending more on education, trucks and vans, and medical care.

In other words it sounds a lot more like middle class consumer spending. I would really appreciate it though if somebody could find the data on savings rates by income level.

11/3/07 10:17 PM  
quebecois separatiste:

List of countries by tax revenue as percentage of GDP
1 Sweden 51,1
2 Denmark 49,7
3 Belgium 45,4
4 Norway 45,0
5 Finland 44,5
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_revenue_as_percentage_of_GDP

Global Competitiveness Report
Ranking 2006-2007
1 Switzerland
2 Finland
3 Sweden
4 Denmark
5 Singapore
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Competitiveness_Report

Human Development Index
1 Norway 0.965
2 Iceland 0.96
3 Australia 0.957
4 Ireland 0.956
5 Sweden 0.951
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_Human_Development_Index

Socialism and capitalism must be combined and mixed together.

11/3/07 11:51 PM  
gwgm:

Dion has made a conscious decision to swing to the left. Out-Harpering Harper on tax cuts is not going to happen.

You can't rationalize actually sticking to Kyoto (next time!) with cutting Canadian tax rates. I don't think even Dion would try to float that lead balloon.

Dion has made his bed... the environment... and he's gonna ride it all the way down to Kim Campbelltown.

Unfortunately for him, he can't run away from the fact that the Liberals did nothing about it for 13 years. That he was a do-nothing Environment Minister only makes it worse.

Dion, the CBC, CTV and the Toronto Star have done a fantastic job singing Al Gore's Chicken Little tune, and have made the environment THE issue in the minds of a lot of Canadians. They thought it would hurt Harper. They were wrong. It has hobbled Dion.

With his history, Dion portraying himself as the Jolly Green Giant is akin to Tony Soprano pretending he's the man to clean up the mob. The pinheads at the Liberal convention bought the green scarf act, but it's obvious the hardcore tree-huggers don't.

Every polling point gained by the Greens appears to have come from the Liberals.

Chretien won because he portrayed himself as being close enough to the centre that small-c conservatives could stomach voting for him... especially after they were told by the CBC that Manning wore a white sheet.

Dion has come out of the closet as a Kyoto wack-job. Some conservatives may be upset about the Income Trust flip flop by Harper, but no one's going to react by jumping to the new, further left, Kyoto/Liberal Party.

The right side of the Liberal vote will continue to head back to the Tories, convinced (by Dion!) that Dion is a socialist. And no one who drinks Gore's Kool-Aid is going to stick with Dion. Green scarves and a pet's name can't push a rotten track record under the rug.

The press is starting to write stories about how Harper is two moves ahead of Dion; painting it as a vice, what they used to laud Chretien for doing (strategic divide & conquer). Pretty lame. And an admission that even they know that the 'scary' Stephen routine is toast.

People have played their cards already. Dion has painted himself into a losing corner. Now it's just a matter of how bad Harper can make Dion look once the election is called.

12/3/07 12:24 AM  
nomdeblog:

AQS or QS, first of all, we agree socialism and capitalism are already mixed given the 42% intrusion of government in the economy. The question is:
do we want to go down the path of imploding Europe or do we want to cut the percentage to say 33%?

I tried to get you to focus on what is going on in the Scandinavian countries. However, you want to stay in your Quebec cocoon propped up by your $120 billion in debt, which is really a deferred tax on the next generation, yet you claim socialism is working. But that’s your business; I just don’t want the ROC to have to bail you out of your debt.

Socialism can somewhat offset its weak productivity by a significant growth in population. In that regard, socialist Europe is really turning into Eurabia. Because Europeans have so littlie hope in their future that they are barren and have to bring in hordes of Muslim immigrants. I read recently where the Swedish Minister of Immigration, herself a Muslim, is very worried that so many Muslims are immigrating to Sweden that Sharia law may be introduced.

Finally, I notice that you like the very pro-business economic models of Singapore, Iceland and Australia .. good. Switzerland of course is a tax haven for the “Belgian dentists” syndrome and I mentioned that phenomena above in the context of Danish entrepreneurs hiding their Dane geld there.

Thankfully, Mario “gets it” and is doing better in the polls; let’s hope he holds up, for Quebec’s sake and the ROC’s.

12/3/07 9:22 AM  
Gord Tulk:

QS - the distinctive characteristics of the three groupings you put in your last post are that all of the countries are small and culturally cohesive not socialist + capitalist.

If you look just a little bit further down the HD and GC lists you will find the US which is certainly not a socialist country. And Iceland has become far less socialist in the past several years, in part with the advice of the late, great leading anti-socialist Milton Friedman.

The HD index has been criticized as being slanted towards socialist countries in that it does not take into account things like disposable, after-tax income.

However, the defining characteristics noted above - small and culturally cohesive - do support your desire to see a separate Quebec - with the greater Montreal and the eastern townships and the cree region stayng in Canada of course - as being a more prosperous way to go for the Quebecois nation.

12/3/07 4:12 PM  
quebecois separatiste:

nomdeblog:

Quebec debt as a % of GDP as been reduced from 55% to 42% in the past 10 years. You are reading too much of Mark Steyn, it shows. Muslim form between 2-4% of Sweden population according to wikipedia. What is your point about Sharia there.

Maybe it is because of the word "socialism" that scare you. Let's call it social justice then.

But the reality is that the scandinavian countries are a perfect model of what Quebec will soon look like when it separate from the ROC nation. There is virtually no poverty in those countries.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavian_welfare_model

Gord turk: Very funny that joke about an independent Quebec without montreal, the cree and the eastern townships. ahahhaha i can't stop laughing. do you have more jokes like that so I can laugh?

12/3/07 10:39 PM  
biff:

Andrew,

watch the whole,

The Great Global Warming Swindel,

and tell me you don't feel a little bit silly talking about "carbon markets" ect.

Here:

http://tinyurl.com/35s54b

Honestly, watch the whole thing, it's an extremely riveting and well produced British documentary.

12/3/07 11:48 PM  
Gord Tulk:

QS:

Do you think the residents of those areas would be laughing? Quebec is divisible and there is a high likelihood that they would resist being a art of an independent Quebec, or didn't you get the UN memo re: the former Yugoslavia?

13/3/07 12:34 AM  
angry quebecois separatiste:

I suppose you mean that the provinces that used to be part of Yugoslavia are now countries with exactly the same border as when they were part of Yugoslavia.

Or the USSR for that matter.

Was it Slobodan Milosevic who claimed that if Yugoslavia was divisible then so was Bosnia and the international communities say: no.

But anyway I live in Montreal, West of St-Laurent street BTW. If Quebec is divisible then are the subdivision of Quebec themselves futher divisible? Because we might as well play that silly game until the end. Let end that game, Canada is divisible, Quebec is not. Period.

13/3/07 2:08 AM  
nomdeblog:

AQS “Let's call it social justice then.”

And you’ve been reading too much Trudeau.. ;>)

Those are just words, meaningless because they are universal and have nothing to do with socialism or capitalism … of course we want social justice, the issue is what system of government will provide it to the most people. I think Mario’s’ system is superior to Boisclair’s .. let’s see how they fair tonight debating it.

I believe in inequality and think it’s healthy because my dog is a mutt and more healthy than my neighbour's purebred that has all the inequality squeezed out of his lineage . .the neighbour’s dog is pur laine and at the vets constantly. My mutt goes once a year for the last 13 years… for a check up.

Quebec is beautiful, I plan to end up in a retirement home in the Cantons de l’Est , once I get my money offshore, away from the socialists. We can continue the conversation there.

13/3/07 9:19 AM  
Garth Wood:

Angry Quebecois Separatiste:

All geopolitical entities are divisible, as is amply proved by thousands of years of human history.  If Canada's divisible prior to Quebec separating, Quebec's divisible after leaving Canada (or even during the process!).

Sorry.  Same is true for other entities, i.e., a possibly-independent Alberta at some future date.  In fact, further divisibility will probably be required at some level, simply because the population of any province isn't uniformly for or against independence.  The distasteful and unacceptable alternative would be for some form of totalitarian repression to arise in the newly-separated entity to crush remaining opposition.

And I'm speaking about this as a reluctant separatist.  The bald fact is that any province attempting to separate isn't gonna be in for a free ride.

13/3/07 11:12 AM  
ET:

Of course, as everyone has pointed out, Quebec is divisible. It's not an organic biological organism; it's a man-made, legislated political entity with man-made borders. Since it was set up by humans, it can be undone by humans.

Most certainly, the northern Cree would reject alignment with a separate Quebec, possibly the Eastern Townships. What does QS suggest to do about this? After all, if he maintains that Quebecers have the right to vote to partition Canada, then, people within Quebec have that same right. Or is QS planning that Quebec would be the first North American totalitarian state? If the Cree vote to leave, what would QS do? Ignore their vote? And when they object to this, would he send in the military? Jail them?

I find the arrogance of QS astonishing- that he can assert that Quebec has the right to leave, but no people and their towns within Quebec have the right to leave Quebec. Who is he to assume such an arrogant authority?

What does QS plan to do? I've suggested that if Quebec voted to leave (and I'm in favour of it), then a huge proportion of the population would leave. Would QS forbid them leaving? Set up a Berlin Wall along all the borders to keep people in Quebec? The exodus would be massive - including both head offices, federal offices and skilled labour.

By the way, what is QS doing, now, to promote and develop this separation of Quebec? Other than talking about it on blogs.

13/3/07 2:53 PM  
Garth Wood:

ET:

I'm assuming that AQS is infected with the same intellectual malaise that afflicts many of the eminences gris in France itself, that is, a belief in France as a nation "one and indivisible."  This is why separatists in Quebec denigrate the idea of Canada actually being a nation; were they to take Canada seriously as a nation, their own ideology would be at loggerheads with the idea of separating from Canada.

Of course, if you abandon the silly notion that nations are indivisible, there's no contradiction left, but then the programme of Quebecois separatists comes to peril.

Cognitive dissonance is a bitch.

13/3/07 6:09 PM  
Gord Tulk:

It is notable that of the countries that appear on AQS's lists above Norway separated froom Sweden in 1905 and Iceland separated from Denmark in 1918 or 1944 depending on your definition.

As I noted in my post above, these subdivisions of countries - ethno-lingual islands if you will - can be very prosperous entities.

That is why I consider Mario Dumont to be a far greater threat to the current configuration of the Canadian Confederation. His strongest base of support is in the heartland of the Quebecois nation - Quebec minus the north, Montreal and the Eastern Townships. His fiscal conservative policies have real promise for the economic viability of a real Quebecois nation as opposed to the fairy tales coming from the economically illiterate Boisclair and company. He is young and identifies with the newer generations of pro-business, pro-globalization Quebecois. Should he be at the helm when a referendum is engineered and the heartland votes heavily for secession while the rest of Quebec votes "no" then it is concievable that Mario leads the move to divide the heartland from the rest of the province (the ROPQ). And a very successful 'New Quebec' it might well be.

Were that to happen the choice for the likes of secessionists living in the ROPQ will be to stay in Canada and become not unlike the Acadians currently are or move to the newfound Quebec - much as the muslims in India moved to Pakistan and those loyal to the confederacy moved from the north to the south and vice versa.

That would be a form of literal dissonance as opposed to a the cognitive version.

13/3/07 8:16 PM  
Anonymous:

The conservatives really are stealing the environment issue from the Libs. Did anyone catch the latest announcement? I don't have the link but here's the lead paragraph:

Ottawa - Canada's New Government announced that the federal government will no longer set fire to taxpayer money. "We promise to dispose of your money in a carbon-neutral fashion" said a smiling Stephen Harper at the announcement of a new multi-billion dollar environmental program to sequester tax dollars in old oil reservoirs. "The technology dividends will mean this program will pay for itself in under twenty years" boasted Finance minister Flaherty as he cut a ribbon in front of a new dollar sequestration facility in the middle of a barren Saskatchewan wasteland. "Canada will become a world leader in dollar sequestration." The program will also include additional subsidies to farmers "for helping out."

Man, they have the next election in the bag.

15/3/07 6:19 PM  
KRB:

Ok, first impressions of the Budget. Hardly any tax relief for non-married people?!? I don't get it. I thought a bottom-bracket reduction to 15% was a slam dunk, plus maybe a point off every other rate. Don't get me wrong, I benefit, but I don't see why you would want to set up even the impression of a divide there.

Even the increase in the RESP's, as far as I can tell, would benefit only those with the money to throw at it right now. An increase to 25% from 20% for the CESG match would've been more welcome. This does, after all, benefit the government in the long run by reducing dependency on the (archaic) student loan system.

I think the Liberals and NDP will jump for joy at this budget. It could've been a whole lot better at relatively little cost.

Another thing I liked: the two-year CCA write-off for manufacturers is a good idea. We simply HAVE to get our productivity numbers up, or we'll be screwed down the road.

19/3/07 5:57 PM  
Thomas:

Well having seen this budget, I, a conservative, will throw in the towel, join my Ontario brethren, and vote Liberal next time. There were no tax cuts AT ALL in this thing...you know, tax cuts, as in the kind where you reduce a tax rate on income, consumption or capital gains...neither for people nor corporations. Tax credits are not tax cuts, just trying to pick favorites and/or buy votes. Argh, SH, you're disappointing me in Technicolor...

19/3/07 11:56 PM