April 27, 2007

Kyoto hypocrisy: a bipartisan cause

It took a bipartisan effort for Canada to miss its Kyoto targets, and it will take that same spirit of bipartisanship to miss the next ones. Never fear: history shows that, when they work together, these two great parties can avoid any task...

The latest set of targets to which the government of Canada has irrevocably committed itself -- notably, a 20% reduction in greenhouse gas emissions from current levels by the year 2020 -- are perfectly fine, as far as they go. Environmentalists may squawk that the new Conservative climate change plan marks the formal abandonment of our Kyoto targets, but that was effectively achieved over the last eight years of the Liberal government, when emissions, far from declining to 6% below 1990 levels, overshot by a mere 35%. In this, as in so many areas of late, the Tories are only signing on to Liberal policy.

Not only have they adopted Liberal attitudes to Kyoto -- something to be embraced in principle, but never in practice -- they have also copied much of the Liberal program. Thus, the Tory plan, like the Liberal plan, offers large industrial emitters a choice of reducing their emissions, or paying into a green technology fund. Thus, the Tory plan, like the Liberal plan, also allows companies to buy and sell emissions credits on international markets. The Tories even go so far as to class carbon dioxide as a controlled substance under the Canadian Environmental Protection Act. All three artifacts of Liberal policy were bitterly opposed by the Conservatives, not just in opposition, but in government. But that was last week.

But the most striking similarity between the two plans is that neither of them is likely to get us anywhere near the targeted reductions in emissions. Even the cap on large emitters, the one solid undertaking in either plan, is likely to be honoured more in the chequebook than the observance: at $15 per tonne, rising to $20, the penalty for exceeding the limits on emissions will be substantially less, for many companies, than the cost of complying with them. (That the limits are in terms of “intensity” -- that is, in emissions per unit of output -- rather than absolute, on the other hand, is a red herring: a sufficient reduction in intensity becomes an absolute reduction.)

So while large emitters are expected to account for 60 megatonnes of the required 150 Mt in reductions by 2020, I’ll believe it when I see it. As for the remaining 90 Mt, to be extracted from other sectors, I can predict with some certainty that it hasn’t got a prayer. The policies that are supposed to achieve these reductions are largely the same grab-bag of subsidies and regulations that the Liberals threw at the problem in one Action Plan after another, and they will fail for the same, very simple reason: because they do not impose the social costs of carbon emissions directly on individuals. And the reason for that is even simpler: because unlike large industrial emitters, individuals vote.

As both parties are acutely aware, public attitudes to global warming are, shall we say, conflicted. We want something done about it, and we want someone else to pay. And so rather than make anyone pay in a way they can see and feel -- and act upon -- both parties endeavour instead to socialize the cost, via subsidies, or disguise it, via regulation. Yes, some of the costs of capping industry emissions will be passed on to consumers, and to that extent individuals will pay. But there are any number of other ways in which carbon is released into the atmosphere, and these will remain the province of such exquisitely useless exercises as subsidizing homeowners to retrofit their houses and imposing fuel-efficiency regulations on automobile manufacturers.

Don’t we ever learn? The best that can be said about subsidies is that they apply only to those activities to which it occurs to the planners to apply them -- while across the economy a thousand other carbon-releasing technologies are sprouting in their place. Worse, they are usually vastly inefficient -- think of the Tory tax credit for transit passes, which in 99 out of 100 cases will simply subsidize existing transit riders to do what they were already doing anyway -- when they are not actually counter-productive. I’m reminded of the liquor industry’s ads urging temperance: “Please drink responsibly.” The operative words are: please drink. Likewise, subsidize technologies that burn fossil fuels at a slower rate, and you are still subsidizing the burning of fossil fuels.

The Tories’ newfound enthusiasm for fuel-efficiency standards is even stranger. How many times does it need to be said? The main effect of legislating fuel efficiency is to reduce the cost of driving. At more miles per gallon, you can drive more miles at the same cost. Whereas by simply raising the price of gas at the pumps, or of carbon more generally, you impart a universal incentive to economize on its use. 

As policy, then, the new Tory plan is a mess. As politics, however,  it may prove to be shrewdly drawn. By embracing the Liberal approach so shamelessly, the Conservatives have called the Liberals’ bluff. As Chantal Hébert has noted, if they are truly as committed to stopping global warming as they claim, and if the Tory plan is as much of a betrayal of that aim as they will say, then they have no choice: they must defeat the government, as soon as possible. If they do not, then they will have admitted, we are every bit as hypocritical as they are.

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35 Comments

The Anonymous Green:

This post has been removed by the author.

27/4/07 8:53 PM  
Anonymous:

AC: You make the following statement: "think of the Tory tax credit for transit passes, which in 99 out of 100 cases will simply subsidize existing transit riders to do what they were already doing anyway." In fact, the Greater Vancouver Transportation Authority just this week released data that blatantly contradicts this statement. Hows about doing some fact checking before posting your anti-Conservative drive-by smears.

27/4/07 8:59 PM  
DW:

AC,

Thank you for this: "How many times does it need to be said? The main effect of legislating fuel efficiency is to reduce the cost of driving. At more miles per gallon, you can drive more miles at the same cost. Whereas by simply raising the price of gas at the pumps, or of carbon more generally, you impart a universal incentive to economize on its use."

I have recently mentioned to a couple of people that it would be great if I could snap my fingers and instantly both double the fuel efficiency of cars and double the price of gas. That way people would pay the same per km that they pay now, thus not increasing their costs (or giving them a reason to take more long driving trips on the weekends) while halving emissions. Each time I say it I get the most odd stares from people who don't get it. They want the fuel efficiency, but don't see the need for the corresponding higher price. But I have not given up trying to explain it ... yet.

27/4/07 10:05 PM  
Sean Cummings:

AC:

An excellent column. Personally, I don't have any beefs with the plan the Tories borrowed from the Liberals -- it's good ol' mushy middle public policy and a good political move. Now that you've dissected the new climate change plan, I eagerly await your column that addresses the unmitigated hypocrisy of voters in this country who demand government *do something* about climate change while those same voters *do sweet f--- all* in terms of addressing how they contribute to global warming. You see, that's what's been missing from this debate since the day Stephane Dion won the Liberal leadership. What are Canadians prepared to sacrifice in they're new found concern for the environment? I suspect they aren't prepared to do much at all and I would buy you a dozen doughnuts - hell, a case of beer even, if you would write a column about this.

27/4/07 11:19 PM  
FDuquette:

Im confused about the distinction between legislated increases in fuel efficiency (or carbon output) and increases in energy costs. Does it simply mean that the former lowers, the latter raises the cost of driving (or using carbon, generally)? However, isnt the effect of raising the cost of driving to lower the cost of driving (i.e., as a motive for efficiency)? Legislation does the same, without waiting for oil to hit $100. Raising the cost would burden individuals and enrich governments, energy producers and oil states; Im not sure this is in the public interest.

28/4/07 12:22 AM  
Cecil:

A typical price for diesel in the European Union is 3 Euros/litre.

That works out to $4.60 Cdn/litre.

Where I live, it's $1.00/litre.

The EU also requires 20% biodiesel content.

I've never seen anyone say that this is the cause of persistently high unemployment in the EU.

The big new seller in Europe right now is Vauxhalls's New Corsa.Prices start at 20,000 CDN. Looks like a Focus. Comes with a 1.3l or 1.7l turbo injected diesel. 60 mpg combined rating, according to the manufacturer.

GM, btw, owns Vauxhall.

Also, my daughter's sweet 16 present is 1000 bucks cheaper now, thanks to to the government's green rebates.

28/4/07 1:08 AM  
Keith:

Andrew - great column. As an economist, what's your take on the banning of incandescent light bulbs? It seems to me that this, yet again, is an example of the tories abandoning market principles for liberal-style regulation. I can't help but think that the real intended consequence of this is that it will simply remove one choice from the marketplace, and result only in a windfall for those manufacturing compact flourescents.

28/4/07 8:46 AM  
David:

I agree with Sean. Voters will tell pollsters they want to see Kyoto implemented but they seem to think that someone else should be paying the price.The day after Baird's announcement a radio call in show, in Toronto no less, took calls in which one after another the callers suggested that they were already doing their part ie. not driving SUV's and that it wasn't fair. They conveniently forget that they consume electricity, eat food and shop in stores that have furnaces.

Granted,it is frustrating to note that even though most of us have bought these silly looking bulbs,replaced old appliances and furnaces with newer cleaner ones and got rid of weed wackers etc.that the net result is that collectively GHG emissions are way up.The answer is far more complex than the 1 tonne challenge.

The only way environmentalists can sell voters the Kyoto protocal is to stay away from specifics on cost.

28/4/07 9:41 AM  
Mike Moffatt:

Keith,

While I'm no Andrew Coyne, I am an economist. I'm also a member of the Green Party of Canada, and I think the banning of incandescent lightbulbs is patently ridiculous. Some brief thoughts on the matter here: Should Governments Ban the Incandescent Lightbulb?

I've said it before, and I'll say it again - leave it to the Harper Conservatives to find the dumbest, most expensive, and most freedom hating plan to meet any objective.

28/4/07 10:19 AM  
The Anonymous Green:

Mike Moffat and Keith,

You are repeating a myth that has been reported extensively in the media.

The gov't is NOT banning incandescent bulbs. They are setting efficiency standards for lighting, to come into effect in 2012.

Refer to the Natural Resources press release:
Lighting the Way to a Greener Future: Canada's New Government to Ban Inefficient Light Bulbs

Gary Lunn, appearing on Politics with Don Newman stated as much this past Wed. Go to 20:00

Their policy is consistent with the position of GE who have claimed they will have a high efficiency bulb available in 2010.

See this story that ran in March: Battle of the bulbs

Lots of R&D on efficient incandescent bulbs can happen in five years, especially with the economic incentive of losing significant market share, in an increasing number of states/countries that are imposing new standards.

28/4/07 10:40 AM  
David:

Mike: actually "Royal" Dalton McGuinty beat Harper to the lightbulb ban by a few days.Perhaps Mcguinty should be crowned the "freedom hater".

Being as that you are an economist and a Green party member I have no doubt that you are an expert on "dumbest, most expensive, and most freedom hating plan to meet any objective" which is what Kyoto is.
How is it going so far?

28/4/07 10:50 AM  
Mike Moffatt:

"The gov't is NOT banning incandescent bulbs. They are setting efficiency standards for lighting, to come into effect in 2012."

Which is a de facto ban. You're counting on the fact that a technology, which currently does not exist ("efficient" incandescent bulb) will be developed by 2012, be marketable (give off a quality of light that consumers want), and be cost effective. That's banking on a lot.

Besides the fact, if such a bulb is developed that gives off the same quality of light, at a comparable price, but uses less electricity, then this ban is hardly necessary.

"Mike: actually "Royal" Dalton McGuinty beat Harper to the lightbulb ban by a few days."

David: And both were beaten by Conservative John Howard in Australia. Your point?

Plus, you're asking a Green party member to defend Dalton McGuinty? What's next - are you going to ask Ezra Levant to defend Howard Hampton?

"dumbest, most expensive, and most freedom hating plan to meet any objective" which is what Kyoto is."

You've completely confused means and ends, David.

Reasonable people can disagree on whether or not the ends of Kyoto should be met. I have no problem with that.

But if your goal (or your end) is to reduce GHG emissions, some means are better to achieve that goal than others.

If the Conservative are really against the goal of reducing GHG emissions, then they should say so, rather than using the most expensive and least effective ends to meet that goal.

28/4/07 11:02 AM  
Brian S:

The tree huggers all want the government to throw Canada into an instant recession.

They are correct that this would help to reduce GHG emissions just as the massive recession in post-USSR Russia lowered GHG emissions there. But lowering emissions by decreased economic activity is a short-sighted policy. And most Candians would not support it, especially when they receive their lay-off notices.

What Cecil does not seem to appreciate is that if Canada were to raise taxes to make our gasoline the same price as in Europe, many parts of our economy would instantly lose their competitiveness with our major trading partner. No responsible government will agree to that.

The only realistic strategy is to move slowly in a manner that does not strangle the economy. Yes, there will be long term benefits from a greener economy but anyone who believes they will occur overnight is living in a dreamworld.

28/4/07 11:06 AM  
The Anonymous Green:

Which is a de facto ban. You're counting on the fact that a technology, which currently does not exist ("efficient" incandescent bulb) will be developed by 2012, be marketable (give off a quality of light that consumers want), and be cost effective. That's banking on a lot.

Yeah, but it's true. Your statements aren't. I'm not banking on a lot. It's the private sector companies like GE who invest in R&D who will be doing the banking.

"Necessity is the mother of invention."

What is defacto today, may not be defacto tomorrow.

28/4/07 11:17 AM  
David:

Mike ;
"you're asking a Green party member to defend Dalton McGuinty? What's next - are you going to ask Ezra Levant to defend Howard Hampton?"
I am not that far off. We do have the Green party leader defending the Liberal federal leader.

"Reasonable people can disagree on whether or not the ends of Kyoto should be met. I have no problem with that."

Fair enough.But your own party along with others haved dismissed those who don't think Kyoto is doable as deniers etc. Too many believe that the debate is over.

28/4/07 11:24 AM  
Mike Moffatt:

If all that is true, AG, then why is the ban even necessary? If the efficient lightbulbs will be so terrific, then why would anyone purchase the inefficient ones, if given the option to do so?

The ban is either unnecessary (because no one would want to purchase the old bulbs), or forces people to purchase something they would not otherwise purchase. Neither speaks well of the ban.

"What Cecil does not seem to appreciate is that if Canada were to raise taxes to make our gasoline the same price as in Europe, many parts of our economy would instantly lose their competitiveness with our major trading partner."

Nobody is advocating this, though.

The price of gasoline in the UK right now is about 93 pence-per-litre. That translates to about $2.07 Canadian. That's well over a dollar a litre more than what I paid in London, ON yesterday.

But suppose for the sake of argument, the Canadian government introduced a new $1.00-per-litre tax, to get close to the UK level. The current UK price is more than a dollar higher, plus such a tax would likely drive down the pre-tax price of gasoline, so we'd likely need a larger tax. But I like round numbers.

A litre of gasoline, when burned, gives off 2.4kg of CO2, or 0.654kg of carbon.

So our new tax rate, in terms of carbon, is $1 per 0.654kg of carbon. In terms of metric tonnes, that's $1529-per-tonne of carbon.

Is anyone, anywhere, advocating a $1529-per-tonne tax on carbon (or a $416.67-per-tonne tax on carbon dioxide)?

28/4/07 11:27 AM  
The Anonymous Green:

If all that is true, AG, then why is the ban even necessary? If the efficient lightbulbs will be so terrific, then why would anyone purchase the inefficient ones, if given the option to do so?

The way I look at it is that it is no different than setting CAFE standards for automobiles, or efficiency standards for refrigerators.

When you are GE, and preparing a business case for investing in R&D to develop a highly efficient incandescent bulb, the economics are quite different in the two cases (new efficiency standards or status quo).

In the first case, with high market share with inefficient incandescent, what is the business driver? The small percentage of consumers who will pay a premium for incandescents that are more efficient?

However, when you are faced with having your bread and butter product for the past 125 yrs regulated off the market, the economics suddenly change dramatically.

In the former case, this is probably why significant advances have not been made in incandescent technology up to this time - it has been a cash cow worth milking further.

And why consumers don't currently have the choice.

28/4/07 11:46 AM  
FDuquette:

Light bulbs are a component of legislation strategy, similar to regulated fuel efficiency standards. If Im reading AC's column right, legislation that aims to reduce carbon emissions fails as people will tend keep their lights on longer, i.e., it costs me less, my behaviour will remain the same or more extravagent.
Alternatively, if it costs me more, I will economize. However, should the government regulate the price of energy (recall the NEP)to effect conservation behaviour? Should we hope that IRan captures more British sailors to allow the market perceptions to spike energy costs and encourage conservation.
Milton Friedman wrote that accounting for an environmental cost was a "market failure" insofar as air and sunlight were free of charge, but argued that the market would create the market for conservation.
Taken to scepticism, I wonder if it is rather a market failure in a total sense, that the cost of the environment cannot be accounted for in any system: legislation does not encourage conservation, and there is no free market force determining the price of energy to encourage conservation.

28/4/07 12:01 PM  
ron in kelowna:

A really, really great post Andrew Coyne !!

You were 99% correct and complete in your analysis of Kyoto Hypocricy.

Maurice Strong accounts for the missing 1%. IMO. Will you write about that soon ??

Warren must be in knots,.. seeing as he is a fan of both Dion and AC. Might have to choose.

28/4/07 1:10 PM  
Werner Patels:

Cecil:

Your comparison with European petrol/diesel prices is spot-on. In Canada, we've been living in la-la land when it comes to these prices. Canadian drivers have been getting away with "murder". And, as you say, Europeans may complain about the prices, but they continue to function.

When I see someone who lives in a condo get in his car to drive his garbage to the dumpster outside right behind his building, because he refuses to carry two garbage bags over a distance of, say, 5 to 10 metres, then, I think, it's very clear that we have a problem stemming from having gasoline prices that are way, way too low.

The same applies to anyone I catch idling their car for an unreasonable amount of time.

Bad behaviour (non-environmental, anti-social, etc.) is best countered by measures that target people's wallets -- that's where it hurts and that's the only way they'll ever learn.

28/4/07 4:56 PM  
The Anonymous Green:

AC,

I'm not sure I agree with your example: "How many times does it need to be said? The main effect of legislating fuel efficiency is to reduce the cost of driving. At more miles per gallon, you can drive more miles at the same cost. Whereas by simply raising the price of gas at the pumps, or of carbon more generally, you impart a universal incentive to economize on its use."

I think you'd really need to raise taxes on gasoline significantly to have the same effect on consumption that increased auto efficiency would cause on emissions. Is a 4-5 x increase in prices politically feasible in North America to match European prices noted above?

Note this Statscan brief of April 12, 2007, Study: Year end review of the economy

Consumers were unfazed by rising gas prices

Consumer spending continued to expand briskly last year, underpinned by strong labour, housing and stock markets.

Not even record high energy prices deterred consumers. While prices rose another 5% on average, the mild winter weather lowered the use of energy for home heating enough that consumers actually devoted a smaller share of their budgets to energy than in 2005.

Consumers in Canada mostly shrugged off the effect of rising gasoline prices on their driving habits, never mind their overall behaviour.

Retail gasoline consumption has continued to increase every year since 2002, including a 0.8% rise last year. The only concession drivers made to higher prices was to switch from premium to regular grade gasoline in each year.

Neither did rising gasoline prices broadly affect the level or composition of vehicle sales. Overall, unit sales were the second highest ever, just 4% below the record set in 2002.

For the fifth straight year, purchases of trucks rose faster than car sales. In fact, the strength of truck sales pushed the share of cars in all vehicle sales to a record low of 51.7% last year.


Also, note this graphic (part of a blog posted on the GP site) of the effect of mandating efficiency standards on refrigerators - energy consumption declines dramatically over time.

Now, some will argue these trends would happen without regulation.

Doubtful. Certainly not in the same time frame.

28/4/07 5:24 PM  
Mike Moffatt:

"The way I look at it is that it is no different than setting CAFE standards for automobiles"

That's being pretty generous about this ban, since CAFE is a regulation on the average fuel economy of a fleet.

This is more akin to setting a strict efficiency standard which would ban all SUVs and trucks.

"The small percentage of consumers who will pay a premium for incandescents that are more efficient?"

That's entirely my point. This ban does nothing but force consumers to buy products that they otherwise would refuse to buy. If consumers wanted more efficient incandescents, then this ban is entirely unnecessary.

I threw together more thoughts on this ban on the About site: If Banning Incandescent Light Bulbs Saves Money, Is It Good Public Policy? No.

As far as public policy goes, this is incredibly poorly designed. So much so, that I can only conclude that it's being used by the Conservatives (and the McGuinty Liberals, for that matter) as to discredit the entire idea of using public policy to reduce GHG emissions.

28/4/07 5:38 PM  
The Anonymous Green:

Mike,

With all due respect, you continue to believe, and perpetuate the myth that incandescents are being banned. Your newest link demonstrates this. They are not.

When you have a duopoly or oligopoly on marketing inefficient incandescent bulbs in N.America, what is the incentive to develop a more efficient incandescent bulb? There is none, unless you can sell them at a premium. Otherwise, all you will do is canibalize your existing sales.

Products like this are mass produced - and the economies of scale drive prices down, in large factories. Combined with established dist'n chains, retail shelf space at Home Depot or Loblaws, these are significant barriers of entry to competitors.

A company like GE would be foolish to develop an additional line of high efficiency bulbs in small batches or production lines, and then carry it also on the shelf. Too many skus to control and restock.

So, they'll go all or none. Either they'll be all low efficiency, or they'll be all high efficiency.

It could be that with a complete change in product line, brought about through a change in regulation, or a threat of a change in regulation, the economies of scale for GE may eventually drive the price down to close to what inefficient bulbs cost today.

And with Siemans and Philips getting out of incandescents, maybe there's a real upside to GE.

If there truly was a ban on incandescents, I'd tend to agree with your argument. But there isn't.

So, it's a bit of a Catch 22 argument. There is no demand for high efficiency incandescents because there are none on the market. There are none on the market, because there is not a significant enough demand.

Why, in this case, regulations on efficiency are required, in my opinion.

28/4/07 6:47 PM  
Mike Moffatt:

"When you have a duopoly or oligopoly on marketing inefficient incandescent bulbs in N.America, what is the incentive to develop a more efficient incandescent bulb? There is none, unless you can sell them at a premium."

Why wouldn't you be able to sell them at a premium, though? If they're truly a better product, then why wouldn't people be willing to pay more for them?

Or, as a corollary, how is it that a single CF light bulb has ever been sold, given that their start-up price is so much higher?

If your logic was true, then CF lightbulbs would have never made it to market. But they have. What happened?

"A company like GE would be foolish to develop an additional line of high efficiency bulbs in small batches or production lines, and then carry it also on the shelf. Too many skus to control and restock."

Then why do they sell CF lightbulbs? I mean, they do - you can go down to Home Depot or Costco and pick up a pack. But by your logic, they're foolish to do so.

28/4/07 7:00 PM  
Grithater:

Mike Moffatt,

I think CF's were developed for markets where electricity is a much more scarce resource. The first one I saw was in Cuba some years ago, for example. The reason they are selling here is that too large a swath of the public take advice on such matters from the media......interesting when you consider that they (the media) are by and large demonstrably innumerate.

28/4/07 7:57 PM  
The Anonymous Green:

Why wouldn't you be able to sell them at a premium, though? If they're truly a better product, then why wouldn't people be willing to pay more for them?

It's simple economics. The volumes would not be high enough, and the margin not big enough, to be profitable when you take ALL of the additional costs into consideration.

Or, as a corollary, how is it that a single CF light bulb has ever been sold, given that their start-up price is so much higher?

If your logic was true, then CF lightbulbs would have never made it to market. But they have. What happened?


A few things have happened to put CFL's on the shelf. A new agreement, the Kyoto Protocol, came into effect. Awareness of global warming and the need to conserve energy has increased significantly. Now, why CFL's instead of high efficient incandescents? I don't work for a bulb company, but I suspect part of it was a hedge by light bulb manufacturers (anticipating what may be coming - banning incandescents) using an existing technology (compact fluorescents probably easier to develop than high efficiency incandescents), and part of it was probably due to the growing size of the niche that would pay a premium for high efficiency light bulbs - largely Kyoto related. I doubt anyone is making much money on the CFLs right now. But, no doubt different companies had different strategies. Protecting existing cash cows no doubt was a factor.

Utilities have also gotten into the act of subsidizing CFL sales - and hence putting them on the shelves of retailers. A couple of years ago, Toronto Hydro for example gave every household a coupon for a CFL from Home Depot. These DSM (Demand Side Management) programs are not based upon GHG emission reductions, but rather delaying the need to build new electricity generation facilities - a big issue in Ontario due to the controversies over nuclear generation, their principal source of electricity.

Then why do they sell CF lightbulbs? I mean, they do - you can go down to Home Depot or Costco and pick up a pack. But by your logic, they're foolish to do so.

I doubt they are making any money on them right now. Maybe a loss leader. Maybe an effort to appear green. Afterall, WalMart has certainly got a lot of good press for its green initiatives, diverting attention from other more social issues. Home Depot got to hold a press conference with Baird and Lunn in Ottawa and conducted an infomercial on their green products. They make no money on these products. They are in the business of selling 2x4's, drywall, lighting and plumbing fixtures etc.

Pure marketing. Not economics.

28/4/07 8:22 PM  
Mike Moffatt:

AG,

You're spreading a great deal of misinformation about CFs.

First of all, CF light bulbs for consumer sale have been available since the early 1980s. I've been purchasing them at outlets such as Canadian Tire since the early-mid 1990s and they were likely available there before then (how long before, I don't know). It's hard to see how their development has anything to do with Kyoto, seeing as General Electric was researching them in the early 1970s and they were available for retail sale in the early 1980s.

28/4/07 8:48 PM  
The Anonymous Green:

So, you are obviously an early adopter.

I bet sales volumes were miniscule.

How does the light quality, size, longevity and price compare with today's CFL's?

28/4/07 9:10 PM  
Mike Moffatt:

AG,

I'm not sure what the sales levels were back then, but I'm sure they were a lot smaller than they are now. But they were available and you didn't have to look that hard for them. I usually bought mine at Canadian Tire, but I'm sure places like Home Hardware had them as well.

I can't remember how much they used to cost in the early 1990s - you'd have to find an old Canadian Tire catalogue. I think they were about 15 bucks a piece. The "swirly" types weren't around back then - most of them were these big frisbee/UFO shaped things, which you couldn't use in a lot of fixtures.

It's hard to compare longevity, because these things last forever.

The main difference is that the old ones used to take a long time to turn on.. 5 or 6 seconds, and wouldn't get to full power for over a minute. The ones I bought at Costco last year come on almost instantly and come to full power in a manner of seconds.

The old ones used to flicker every so often. I haven't noticed that with our new ones, yet I've heard from others that they're bothered by the flicker (so maybe I'm not all that observant).

Other than less flickering, I don't notice any difference in the quality of light between the old and the new CFs.

The new ones are quite a bit better and way cheaper than they were 10-15 years ago, even without taking into account inflation.

28/4/07 9:40 PM  
The Anonymous Green:

OK, well, probably my last post on this - thanks for the discussion.

I don't dispute your claim that GE and others were probably doing some early R&D on CFLs. But this may not be unlike what Sony does. They have an R&D dept that cranks out a wide range of electronic gadgets, and then puts them to market - those that are a hit or show promise with consumers are further developed. Losers are dropped.

Today's G&M had a small article on CFLs, suggesting the light quality is not that bad. Mind you, they look darn pricey. See here: Yes, these really are compact fluorescents

GE is the second largest company in the world (by market cap). They have also stated a strategic focus on green products - Kyoto related. See this Time magazine article: GE's Green Awakening

So, when they suggest that they will have a high efficiency incandescent bulb ready for market by 2010, I would tend to take it at face value. Otherwise, if it was not technically feasible, from their perspective, why would they state as much? Why raise expectations unnecessarily? Why not focus R&D on CFLs?

Interesting dissussion. I can't add much more - without more speculation, bordering on "misinformation".

Cheers

28/4/07 10:12 PM  
Fred :):

or the better and already on the market alternative are LED light bulbs.


Extremely efficient, last forever ( literally) no mercury pollution issues as per CFL's and the light quality is "brilliant".

Hard to find them but if you can try one on for size.

29/4/07 9:46 AM  
paul.obeda@:

What's with all this focus on fuel efficiency and lightbulbs, anyway?

Remember: it's not the Alberta Tarsands. It's the Alberta cattle ranches:
http://news.independent.co.uk/environment/article2062484.ece

30/4/07 8:18 AM  
KRB:

Pedantic alert!

Mike Moffat said: And both were beaten by Conservative John Howard in Australia. Your point?

John Howard might be conservative, but he is not a Conservative. He's the leader of Australia's Liberal party.

30/4/07 11:57 AM  
Anonymous:

Incandescent bulbs have been getting less and less retail shelf space lately. CFLs and LEDs have been getting more. GE came out in support of the ban and there has been no uproar from the rest of the lighting industry. Could it be that the incandescent bulb was already going the way of the Dodo and the high-efficiency/ban policy is just a way for the federal government to take credit for something that was already a foregone conclusion in the market?

1/5/07 11:58 AM  
The Anonymous Green:

The new Canadian targets for lighting efficiency comes on the heels of similar proposed legislation in California, with one exception - there they are banning incandescents outright, which GE opposes. Rather, GE supports the Canadian approach.

This article is interesting - demonstrating how changes in regulation drive R&D in new technologies - LEDs, fibre optics, metal halide, high efficiency incandescents.

Could California Ban the Bulb?

But, note the comments at the bottom of the article, along the lines of what I have suggested earlier, protecting the cash cow that is inefficient incandescents.

[California] Law Would Create Losers

Despite the potential to charge up new technologies, make no mistake: if the ban passes, there will be losers.

Light bulbs will cost buyers a lot more, for one thing—although people would make up the cost by buying fewer and paying less for electricity, said Mr. Davenport, also the former general manager of research and development for GE Lighting.

Major light bulb companies like GE, Osram Sylvania, and Philips could also suffer from lower sales because people would buy fewer bulbs.

If the California and Wal-Mart initiatives snowballed and the world switched off of incandescent bulbs, the effect would be enormous, as a third of the world’s energy is used for lighting, and half of the lights are incandescent, he said.

Because CFLs last five times as long as incandescents, companies like GE would only make a fifth of the bulbs they’re making now, making light bulbs much more expensive, he said.

“Four-fifths of the capacity would be idle,” he said. “If that equipment is not running, it—and the factories it’s sitting in—costs you, and that means the bulbs they are manufacturing would cost a lot more. It not only reduces the margin for the new product, but it erodes the margin for the old product, too.”

1/5/07 4:05 PM