April 21, 2007

Listen to Baird: this wolf may be real

Liberal Senator Dennis Dawson accused Baird of scare tactics.

"The sky is falling -- we've seen this before," Dawson said. "Every time we talk about changes that protect the environment we have people telling us they will destroy the economy."

He said similar warnings were issued about the program to curb acid rain, yet it was implemented without difficulty.

The story of “the boy who cried wolf” ends, if memory serves, with the wolf devouring the boy. Moral: it’s not crying “wolf” if there really is a wolf....

It’s a time-honoured rhetorical technique, all the same -- to dismiss any and all warnings of the consequences that attend a given course of action as so much fear-mongering. It appeals to our eyeball-rolling reflex, flattering our self-image as doughty skeptics, over whose eyes no wool may be pulled.

Hence the Liberal riposte to the Environment minister’s estimates of the costs to the economy of adopting their declared policy with respect to global warming, as contained in Bill C-288: a bill that would commit us, not merely to comply with our Kyoto targets, but on the original Kyoto timetable-- a distinction that seems to elude most of the media. Rather than attempt to rebut the minister’s figures, the Liberals’ main defence has been to accuse him of scare tactics.

But it's not scare tactics if in fact those are the costs. And indeed the minister’s numbers -- if you accept his assumptions -- are quite plausible, as a number of expert reviewers have attested, including Don Drummond, the former Finance department chief economist, and Mark Jaccard, perhaps Canada’s leading authority on the economics of climate change.

The key assumption is that the bulk of the required reductions -- 75% -- would have to be achieved domestically, rather than by buying emissions credits abroad. We’ll get to that assumption in a second, but the implications if you accept it are stark. At 770 megatonnes per year, we are now about 36% above the target set out in the Kyoto protocol: 6% below 1990 levels, or 563 Mt.

The deadline for meeting this target is not, as commonly reported, 2012. Rather, it is 2008 to 2012: the target is defined as the average annual emissions over that period. Yet emissions are currently projected to grow another 10% over the next five years, to roughly 850 Mt. So it isn’t just a matter of somehow cutting 200 Mt out of emissions by next year, but of cutting nearly 300 Mt by 2012 -- an average reduction of 33% from the baseline forecast. If we fall short of that target in the first year, we have to exceed it in subsequent years.

It took 17 years for Canada’s greenhouse gas emissions to rise from 600 Mt to present levels. To reverse all of that increase in the space of one year, or even five, would require the most extreme measures, as the Environment study indicates, including an across-the-board carbon tax of $195 a tonne.

This is an enormous shock for the economy to absorb, even with offsetting cuts in personal and corporate income taxes. Eventually, it adjusts. And indeed, eventually, as the opposition protests, there would be some offsetting benefts from greater energy efficiency. But in the short-term, the dislocation would be severe.

So let’s relax the minister’s assumption. Let’s suppose we buy a much higher proportion of the emissions credits overseas, for $25 a tonne. I have no objection to this in principle: as with any other import, if it’s cheaper to buy them from foreigners, we should. The question is to what extent this can be done in practice -- again, within the very limited time frame to which the opposition would commit us.

There are two broad ways of obtaining these credits. One is from developing countries, through the Joint Implementation or Clean Environment Mechanisms established under Kyoto. But the total worldwide supply of these is an estimated 85 Mt, and the government’s projection already assumes we have bought 65 Mt of these.

The other place to buy credits is on the international emissions trading markets. But these are only just getting under way, and it is to be doubted whether they could yet handle the kinds of demands we would be placing upon them. Moreover, much of the supply of credits would come from places like Russia, whose economy conveniently collapsed just after the Kyoto baseline year, leaving it with much unused capacity. Again, no objection in principle -- but this is Russia we’re talking about. Do we really know what we’re purchasing, or from whom?

Last, there is the legal question. The clear expectation at Kyoto was that the greater part of the required reductions would take place domestically. While no specific percentage is mentioned, the Protocol speaks of a “significant element.” The so-called “flexibility” mechanisms were intended to be “supplemental” to domestic action, not a replacement for it. So it would arguably violate at least the spirit of Kyoto to rely so heavily on purchases abroad.

And since complying with Kyoto is the only reason we would be engaged in this mad dash to hit an arbitrary target by an artificial deadline, what exactly would we be accomplishing?

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73 Comments

Blogger Fred :):

"And since complying with Kyoto is the only reason we would be engaged in this mad dash to hit an arbitrary target by an artificial deadline, what exactly would we be accomplishing?"

Nada. Zilch. Zero. Forking out $billions of dollars for net zero return, creating a huge opportunity cost in lost projects that would benefit the environment, our social and technical infrastructure.

But we'll FEEL better for having kept our thumb stuck in the GhG dike while the Chines & Indians D8 bulldozers to destroy their sections of the GhG "floodwall".

We'll spend $billions, the GhG output level globally will rise and continue to increase the rate of output, but we'll have the moral high ground on our side.

We won't have much of an economy left, Alberta might finally be pissed off to the point of the Block Alberta gaining power & telling urban Canada (the Kyoto zone) to get stuffed.

Cool.

21/4/07 5:15 PM  
Anonymous biff:

The disconnect between,

Kyoto proponents' cries of an impending worldwide calamity, founded on our industrialized dependence on fossil fuels, our overconsumptive ways which are so entrenched in our way of living that the calamity appears all but certain unless immediate and drastic steps are taken,

and,

their claims that the aversion of such a calamity will nevertheless come at relatively little cost,

shows just how unserious this green movement really is.

21/4/07 6:05 PM  
Anonymous KWest:

The bill that was passed required the gov't to... what was it...do something or other about Kyoto within 60 days. Surely that time has passed...and yes I know about Royal Assent and Proclamation (were these ever done?)

Though the bill doesn't allow for any spending, therefore giving the gov't an 'out', I remember at the time several predictions of dire consequences to the government of 'ignoring' a duly passed law, and woe be unto he who, etc, etc...

So? Time's up? Cue the outrage, get the Mounties up here to arrest government, shouldn't Jack Layton be on TV wringing his hands (more than the average amount), pleading for someone, somewhere, to do something...should M. Dion be angrily addressing the complaint press, throwing together a collection of verbs and nouns that may (or more as like, not) form a coherent, yet meaningless, English sentence?

Oh wait...quiet...it seems like everyone just went back to sleep instead.

Ho hum.

Sending billions of Canadian tax money overseas for a feel-good solution is just-plain-stupid (TM).

21/4/07 6:16 PM  
Blogger Fred :):

"The bill that was passed required the gov't to... what was it...do something or other about Kyoto within 60 days."

Correct . . but the Bill hasn't passed yet. the Senate hasn't done its thing yet and there is the proclamation thingy . . .

21/4/07 7:25 PM  
Anonymous Steve L.:

a mildly satisfactory column.

21/4/07 8:23 PM  
Blogger paul.obeda@:

Proponents of buying international credits typically talk in general terms, saying how many Mt of foreign emissions will be reduced by our money.

But unfunded projects to reduce emissions, even internationally, are rare at best. Some money has instead been found going to projects which were already planned, with the extra cash injection simply increasing the profits of foreign firms. There have been suggestions (I don't have links to prove it) that some money has gone to firms to "avoid" increased emissions. That's right, according to these suggestions if you planned to turn on a light switch, you can get paid to simply not turn it on or to dim the lights! (Well, on a large-enough scale, anyway.)

Even worse, some money has been found going to projects which actually increase overall emissions, where credits are available to destroy byproducts which have a very high Greenhouse Warming Potential (GWP). This is the case for the manufacture of refrigerant HCFC-22. A byproduct of the manufacturing process is CFC-23, and destroying CFC-23 has proven quite lucrative for some firms.

Now the manufacture of HCFC-22 is illegal in many countries, but the UN has yet to act to phase it out in other developing countries. (There's a rough timeline for its elimination over the next 50 years or so.)

Even if those rapidly-developing countries managed to stop the growth of HCFC-22 manufacture, these carbon credits simply provide additional profits to the relevant companies, and do not create the infrastructure to reduce emissions as Kyoto desires. The incentive to change to alternative refrigerants is eliminated by these credits. And even the regulators only express hope of avoiding growth in foreign emissions (e.g. by building natural gas power plants instead of coal) rather than reducing emissions.

In other words, if we tax ourselves to the pre-industrial age, global emissions will still go up and not down. Oh, and all those consequences the scientists are warning about? Yeah, we've still got to pay to address all of them, too.

21/4/07 10:20 PM  
Anonymous quebecois separatiste:

The root cause of this is very simple: we are too many humans on earth. hence pollution, hence global warming.

6.5 billions. that's too much.

21/4/07 11:08 PM  
Anonymous Mike Jr:

I blame cows. Seriously, look at the emissions from livestock. Smelly bastards are destroying the planet.

22/4/07 12:33 AM  
Blogger Kim Feraday:

Isn't it funny that on the same day that Baird announced the devasting impact of compliance with Kyoto, the Australian government announced that the current drought there is likely to have a devasting effect on their economy unless there is significant rainfall in the very short term.

On second thought it's not funny at all. We can argue over the semantics of the costs of taking significant action but the reality is the alternative is going to be much more devastating.

22/4/07 2:37 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous:

Kim, what is this "drought" you speak of? Is this some new form of disaster that never happened prior to the onset of global warming?

22/4/07 3:47 AM  
Blogger Sean Cummings:

If we're to believe the IPCC's report on climate change, then nothing can be done to stop ice caps from melting and coastal cities from flooding. The globe could suddenly stop producing GHG's and go back to the horse and buggy, Halifax would still be underwater because of climate change.

Seems to me that seeing as how we're doomed regardless of what we do, that we should divert the money we would be blowing on purchasing credits from third world countries to paying for reinforcing coastal cities, planning for drought, etc, ad nauseum.

God I am so tired of this debate. I've stopped blogging about it because it is no longer a debate -- it's morphed into a witch hunt against anyone who dares question the groupthink surrounding the entire green movement. I don't know what it's going to take for the news media to start doing a serious analysis of the claims from people like David Suzuki to Stephane Dion for that matter.

Finally, I'm not convinced that Canadians see this as a ballot box issue. We claim to be so concerned about the environment, yet we're more than willing to shell out over a buck/litre to drive our SUV's in gridlock when we could just as easily take the damned bus.

22/4/07 4:56 AM  
Anonymous Steve L.:

i always take the bus. haven't needed my driver's license for anything over the last 2 years or so.

but hey what do i know about the environment? i'm a fire-breathing right wing death beast.

oh and instead of breathing fire, i can also emit poisonous chlorinated and / or sulphuric gas. i can fly too, because of my dragon-like form, but most times i'd rather take the bus than needlessly frighten my neighbors.

22/4/07 6:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous:

If they put in all these "green taxes" (consumption) and reduce taxes on personal and corporate income equally, wont that HELP the economy?

Shouldn't true conservatives LIKE that idea? It would mean less revenue long term, like if the government had a tax on VCR's and records, only on a much larger scale.

That's not even taking into account
the massive excess fiscal room the Fed's have. They could easily benefit the economy plenty with the right tax cuts.

I say try the Jane Jacobs/Green party method. Cut the various types of income taxes (business, corpoate, personal) by 10-15 billion or so a year with a net decrease in taxes of 5-8 billon and make up the difference with green taxes. Every year. Kyoto will be a piece of cake.

22/4/07 6:36 AM  
Blogger bigcitylib:

Andrew,

Well, as I noted elsewhere, Baird seems to have drawn these numbers out of thin air. When asked how he arrived at this figures, he has referred people to an all of 200 word blurb at the CPoc website. It appears he actually got them from Harper's psychic.

Also, Sean, do you think it would cost any less money to build a wall around Vancouver or launch a reflecting mirror into space than it would to have to oil sands clean up its production techniques? That is just another form of denial.

22/4/07 6:49 AM  
Blogger Grithater:

BCL,

I am always fascinated by Toronto's fixation on the oil sands, when Ontario Power Generation is actually the elephant in the room when it comes to GHG's. Clean up that open sewer you live in, then start worrying about telling other people how to run their lives.

22/4/07 8:13 AM  
Blogger dumbfounded:

Grithater hits the proverbial nail, all the ranting on GHG. It's everyone elses problem just leave me alone and don't you dare cost me any money.

I agree Ontario should just shut up until they have cleaned up their own mess. Oh and by the way Canada does not begin and end at either the Toronto city limits nor the Ontario borders. Now there's an "Inconvienent Truth" for you to swallow.

22/4/07 8:58 AM  
Anonymous DW:

AC,

Listening to the most recent round of Liberals and Conservatives bitch at each other over Kyoto has been quite frustrating. For YEARS now, the Conservatives have been crying wolf. They have ALWAYS declared that it is doom-and-gloom if we try to do anything about the environment. And now, that they are right that implementation to hit targets 9 months away WOULD result in doom-and-gloom, they expect us to forget that they were WRONG when they said the same thing several years ago about targets that were then YEARS away. They should get no credit for crying "wolf" before the wolf was born just because he is here now. They have never shown any real interest in doing anything about the environment, and still have not.

The Liberals, however, have absolutely no moral authority to criticise. They were the ones who kept telling us "we know there is a problem and we have to do something about it ... how about later?" It's hard to know what is worse: Crying wolf when there is none, as the Cons did, or seeing that trouble is on the way yet doing nothing about it (perhaps, to mix metaphorical stories, the Libs are the grasshoppers in a story without ants). All I can say is that the more the Libs and Cons fight over the environment, the stronger the case they make to vote NDP ... or Green .... (!)

22/4/07 9:04 AM  
Anonymous ron in kelowna:

Andrew; good post.

The Kyoto Hoax is finally receiving the ink it deserves.

Who will be the first major media writer to now reveal the person responsible for all this bunk ?? Blogs have, for years already.

Hint: Oak Lake, MB.

I have put this question to the Warren Kinsellas of the world many times. .... Silence.

Pity, because the Kyoto scam makes Y2K scam look like a Kate-Walk.

22/4/07 9:58 AM  
Blogger The Anonymous Green:

This is simply evidence of a self fulfilling prophecy.

Kyoto opponents have for years (back to the mid 90s) argued that meeting the Kyoto targets would result in severe economic costs, recession, major job losses etc.

So,by fighting tooth and nail along the way, further delays while we consult with industry, govts of all stripes have done nothing over the past 10 years.

Now, with time running out, yes, it is not surprising that the economy would need to take a whack in short order to achieve the targets.

It's like being 100 lbs overweight, with a target of fitting into your wedding dress in twelve months time. Losing eight pounds per month is not onerous - cut back on the Doritos and walk for 1/2 hr per day. Wait until a week before the wedding rehearsal before doing anything, and you'll be spending a few days at Lanny's Liposuction and Fat Farm Emporium.

In reading the study, it appears to me that the model used, at a very general uses some sort of empirical supply/demand curve. Tax the bejeesus out of something and then eventually behaviour will change (ie you'll drive less or certain activities will become uneconomic). Is the $195/tonne level because a lot of these activities are inelastic?

I suspect a lot of activity/tax avoidance would occur before that level was ever reached - like investing in more efficient equipment/processes.

The devil is in the details - The notes in the Conclusions section of the report need to be fully understood before accepting this report at face value. http://www.ec.gc.ca/doc/media/m_123/c9_eng.html

22/4/07 10:39 AM  
Blogger youngid:

Canada's GHG emissions aren't significant on a global scale. Our only meaningful contribution to global warming prevention will come in a leadership role, essentially using Kyoto to shame the big GHG producers into reducing their emissions. Kyoto should not be measured only for its environmental impact; the seemingly arbitrary targets are important because they signify a commitment to the environment that we can press other countries to match.

22/4/07 11:35 AM  
Blogger bigcitylib:

Grithater,

Largest single emitter yes. But Alberta has most of the top 25 or so. That's how it manages to produce 40% of Canada's emissions with about 10% of the pop. It always amazes me that Conservatives go especially soft on polluters when it comes to the oil sands and Alberta in general.

(By the way, watch for Nanticoke to close be closed during Dalton's second term)

22/4/07 12:22 PM  
Anonymous bloggawa:

Mike Jr. isn't so far off the mark.

"The United Nations released a ground breaking report in November 2006 linking animal agriculture to environmental damage. The report, titled Livestock’s Long Shadow–Environmental Issues and Options,"concludes that the livestock sector (primarily cows, chickens, and pigs) emerges as one of the top two or three most significant contributors to our most serious environmental problems, at every scale from local to global. It is one of the largest sources of greenhouse gases - responsible for 18% of the world’s greenhouse gas emissions as measured in CO2 equivalents. By comparison, all transportation emits 13.5% of the CO2. It produces 65% of human-related nitrous oxide (which has 296 times the global warming potential of CO2) and 37% of all human-induced methane (which is 23 times as warming as CO2). It also generates 64% of the ammonia, which contributes to acid rain and acidification of ecosystems." (from Stolen Moments - a Green Digest)

22/4/07 12:49 PM  
Blogger Grithater:

Uh, BCL, where does all that oil produced in Alberta actually get consumed? Yep, by champagne socialists, limousine liberals and SUV driving soccer moms cruising around...........Toronto. They don't produce the stuff for fun, you see, they do it to meet demand in urban Ontario. Only way to stop the oil sands is to stop consuming. Actual individuals have to take responsibility for their actions.....an anathema to Liberals I know, they want mommy government to fix everything.

By the way BCL, how is McLiar going to replace Nanticoke, with wind and solar?

22/4/07 1:19 PM  
Blogger Alex Sloat:

DW, Anonymous Green - The Tories keep crying wolf because the wolf is real. It's not the sudden shock that will make Kyoto hurt, it's the fact that we have to reduce our industrial base by a third. In case it's not clear, that is a hell of an economic hit, and it's not something you can mitigate simply by yelling "Conserve!" at people or by wishing really hard. Yes, there are efficiencies to be found, but they don't amount to 1/3 of our CO2 production. A $195/ton carbon tax is more likely to derive its "efficiency" from bankruptcy than from any actual efficiency - $150 billion tax increases do that. On the upside, we'd be able to eliminate just about every other tax around, but I think the $0.41/L gas tax increase, and the fact that energy costs have just doubled, will take that back out of a lot of pockets pretty quickly. (For starters, look at this: http://www.janegalt.net/blog/archives/001044.html)

22/4/07 1:22 PM  
Blogger Work In Progress:

I pray that Global Warming is blown way out of proportion or a complete scam, because if it's going to take cooperation among the 195 (give or take) nations of the world to save us, we're DOA. Don't even bother steering the SUV away from the brick wall, nor even slowing down. Just enjoy the ride.

22/4/07 1:24 PM  
Blogger The Anonymous Green:

Alex Sloat:

I hope you don't attend the same university where your reference link, Jane Galt got her MBA.

But to be fair to Jane, Jeff Rubin, economist of CIBC recently issued a similarly simplistic and in my opinion, flawed analysis.

The basic rationale of either approach is to use an index such as emissions/GDP. You need to cut emissions by 30%, so the GDP has to be cut accordingly by 30%.

Here's an example of how this approach is flawed:

Draw a box around the Microsoft complex in Seattle, and then gerrymander the boundary to include a cement factory that burns used tires as a fuel. Total GDP withing the box in 1990 is $30 billion Microsoft, and $10 million from the cement plant.

Fast forward to 2007. Microsoft sales with the same size campus $40 billion. Cement factory in heavy CO2 intensive industry has tripled production, so sales are $30 million.

To get back to 1990 levels, using emissions per unit GDP analysis you'd have to cut total GDP by a factor of 3.

B.S. analysis. You have to do it sector by sector to see where the growth in emissions is rising, and look at alternative ways of adressing the specific sectoral growth/reductions.

As an aside - as has been noted in other places, transportation contributes a good chunk of our CO2 emissions, and may have skewed the Baird study which resulted in the $195/tonne number. To get people to cut their vehicle emissions, you'd have to tax the heck out of gas, because of it's largely inelastic supply/demand curve. Then when you applied this skewed number to the rest of the economy, it would tank.

You could also take a different approach at a much lower cost - like they did in the US in the 70s - simply lower the speed limit on freeways to 55 mph (90 km/h), which would have a major impact on transportation emissions.

Baird's study did not look at these types of alternate approaches.

Nor did the MBA's :)

22/4/07 2:55 PM  
Blogger The Anonymous Green:

Grithater said:"By the way BCL, how is McLiar going to replace Nanticoke, with wind and solar?"

I can answer that. Last I heard it was an $80 billion plan, with $45 billion thereabouts for nukes (to maintain current generation levels), efficiency, renewables, gas and cogen.

Refer to this Ontario Ministry of Energy press release. Good overview and pie charts.

http://www.energy.gov.on.ca/index.cfm?fuseaction=english.news&back=yes&news_id=134&backgrounder_id=105

22/4/07 3:25 PM  
Blogger hosertohoosier:

The percentage of C02 emissions that come from Canada are fairly small. The difference between Canada reducing emissions by 30% in 4 years, and say, 20 years is so negligible it is barely worth discussing.

I do think we should be doing something, but I ask the Kyoto folks WHY we have to aim for such an unrealistic goal. I heard an interesting point somebody made about how Dion had bifurcated the debate in a very negative manner - forcing people into one camp or another.

I don't see how making a good faith effort, and spending emission credit money at home is such a bad thing.

22/4/07 4:46 PM  
Blogger Grithater:

The Anonymous green said: "I can answer that. Last I heard it was an $80 billion plan, with $45 billion thereabouts for nukes (to maintain current generation levels), efficiency, renewables, gas and cogen."

Hmmm. $80 Billion divided by 12 Million people in Ontario equals $6,666 per man, woman and child in Ontario. AG, when Dalton asks you to bend over the sink, I'd suggest you clench your teeth; He'll probably tell you Kyoto won't hurt, I wouldn't be so sure. Natural gas doesn't produce CO2 when burned? Cool.

22/4/07 5:24 PM  
Blogger bigcitylib:

Grithater,

You sound like my dear grandma railing against the horseless carriage.

22/4/07 5:37 PM  
Blogger The Anonymous Green:

Grithater said:Hmmm. $80 Billion divided by 12 Million people in Ontario equals $6,666 per man, woman and child in Ontario. AG, when Dalton asks you to bend over the sink, I'd suggest you clench your teeth; He'll probably tell you Kyoto won't hurt, I wouldn't be so sure. Natural gas doesn't produce CO2 when burned? Cool.

I see your blog is titled "SmallcBigConservative". What's the c stand for? Contrarian? :)

I hate to suggest your analysis is overly simplistic, but dividing a long term (say 30 yr)capital investment by the population to arrive at "$6,666 per man, woman and child" suggests your head was wretching into the toilet when the accounting class was studying amortization.

Any capital expenditures that a utility spends are reflected in the rates that its customers pay over time.

So, using your simplistic approach, the $6,666 you calculate, over the 30 yr life of a nuke, for example, would work out to be about $222 per yr. - or say $18.50 per month. This would appear, probably in the $0.10 per kW-hr rate you pay. Use less, pay less.

And by the way, John Tory (I assume this is who you support) wants to invest in nukes at a much quicker rate than the Liberals, recently announced.

http://www.oilweek.com/news.asp?ID=8526

Tory calls for more nuclear power plants, claims Liberals dithering (Ont-Conservatives-Nuc)

TORONTO (CP) _ A Progressive Conservative government would move quickly to increase the number of nuclear power plants in Ontario if the party wins the Oct. 10 provincial election, Opposition Leader John Tory said Wednesday.

In a speech to a $1,000-a-plate Conservative fundraising dinner, Tory said Ontario must immediately start building more nuclear plants to meet its future energy needs and to help curb greenhouse gases from coal-fired generating stations.

“For our environment, for our economy, for a secure energy supply and Ontario‘s future, we have to get going on nuclear power,‘‘ Tory told the well-heeled crowd of 2,500.

“Mr. McGuinty has dithered for four years. We must meaningfully advance the process for building new nuclear capacity right away.‘‘

The Liberals have announced a $40-billion program to upgrade the province‘s aging nuclear plants and to build new reactors, but no environmental assessments have been completed, and it will be years before a new plant is built...
.

As to your comment about natural gas - you need some capacity if your portfolio includes wind/solar to meet peak demand when the wind isn't blowing, or the sun isn't shining.

22/4/07 5:58 PM  
Blogger Grithater:

BCL said "Grithater, You sound like my dear grandma railing against the horseless carriage." BCL, you sound like my 18 yr old daughter, entitled to everything, responsible for nothing. I take it, that since you failed to address the substance of my post and opeted for the infantile nyah, nyah, argument you are conceding the point that consumption is the problem, most of which is done in Ontario?

22/4/07 6:54 PM  
Blogger Grithater:

AG: "I hate to suggest your analysis is overly simplistic, but dividing a long term (say 30 yr)capital investment by the population to arrive at "$6,666 per man, woman and child" suggests your head was wretching into the toilet when the accounting class was studying amortization."

AG, I am suggesting that you were well out of your depth in elementary school when they taught the basics of the calendar. Kyoto goes into effect 8 months from now, 30 years takes you alot closer to 2050, and targets and solutions for then were "dead on arrival" and resulted in a rewrite of a bill and the termination of an environment minister.

AG, this thread is about Kyoto 2008-2012. 30 years or 3,000 years, same relevance, none.

p.s. Don't live in Ontario, don't care about any provincial politicians.

22/4/07 7:06 PM  
Blogger The Anonymous Green:

Grithater,

I believe it was you that raised the issue about Nanticoke in this thread, and asked what it was to be replaced with. So, I replied.

I believe the current Liberal Ontario plan is to shut it down in the neighbourhood of 2012-2014. The loss of generating capacity will be made up by conservation, cogen, and renewables. The nukes won't come on stream until sometime later. When, who knows. That's why Tory is complaining.

So, the 30 yrs I quoted is for how long an asset (nuke) would last - not when it first cuts emissions.

You are mixing things up - Prov Liberal electricity plan, and the Fed Conservative Clean Air Act.

Kind of like when in diapers, someone mixing your peas and mashed potatoes together to make you swallow them both. A bad habit that's tough to outgrow if you like the effect. :)

22/4/07 7:27 PM  
Anonymous Stephen:

Anon Green,

You are right some industrial sectors are worse offenders than others....however, unless the good they produce is exported 100% then you are facing increased costs to all the sectors that provide the input.

The largest producers of CO2 tend to be primary input industries, steel, oil, energy, cement etc

OR they are the ultimate consumer of such energy, people driving cars, auto industry using steel to make the cars.

At the end of the day consumers pay the ultimate cost, unless it is 100% exported industry.

If all exports then you come to the issue of competitive advantage. If your good has a surtax on it and one produced in India or China doesnt then you sell less....this is how you acheive CO2 reductions by devestating your economy.

As for your Microsoft example....if you did a proper CO2 full chian analysis you would find that Miucrosoft is the cause of significant C02...all of the electricity used to power the computers, produce the CD's etc.

So they to would have to work on finding alternatives or see an increase in their cost base. Hmm less profits, slower growth path, that means that all of those pension funds and mutual funds would take hits to their value....once again a major wealth effect downward shift.

A shift wont be costless, I doubt you would question that. But what isnt clear is how much cost. What is interesting about Stern is his attempt to go after that cost. There are questions about discount rates used etc but it is speculation.

Costs in the future are uncertain and costs today are certain. Best approach is incremental and work on the easy stuff till it becomes more apparent. Despite the assertion there is not an overwhleming scientific consensus that we are headed to Hell in a Handbasket, all anyone can agree on is that C02 levels are higher...after that you get into a lot of debate, despite what the IPCC policymakers report (not scientific report) states.

As for the weight analogy, the effects and costs of weight are pretty well understood. I dont believe the same can be said for the effects of increased CO2, given that not a single prediction from the AGW group has been within any reasonable quanta of accuracy.

Do you know why we have the target we have? Because the chretien government sent environmetalists to the negotiations and most of the others sent financial analysts and economists. Oh and that they wanted to be 1% better than the Americans without thinking through the impacts.

Lets do something as an option or insurance policy but lets focus on the implementable not the insane, and lets not get goaded into this lets be a leader rhetoric. It is insane to focus on this goal in the timeframe stated when the Chinese and the Indians, let alone the Americans arent part of the treaty. So the CPC hasnt drunk the kool aid but is following the elctorate in doing some things. Good, best course of action in the face of uncertain information and the lack of effect.

22/4/07 7:59 PM  
Blogger The Anonymous Green:

Stephen,

Your comments are kind of general, so I don't necessarily disagree with them.

As to "competitive advantage", it sounds like you may be familiar, as I am, with Michael Porter's 1991 publication "The Competitive Advantage of Nations".

Lesser known is his later Canadian gov't sponsored study through his Monitor Consulting Group entitled "Canada at the crossroads", 1991

Both studies warned about, what he called, "factor based economies" - primary or low value added industries. This is the "drawers of water, hewers of wood" analogy.

A shame no one took his study seriously. Our economy is far more resource based today than it was just a decade ago - and we all know primarily why.

In terms of carbon taxes on our exports, yeah, maybe the concerns with India and China could be legit, if we competed in any significant way on anything other than commodities. But then again, you'd need to look closer at what percentage energy costs are of their cost inputs. In high margin products, yeah, maybe the manufacturer would need to eat some costs.

With the US placing a stated focus on energy security, doubtful a carbon tax on this economic driver would have much effect, if any, in my opinion.

22/4/07 10:14 PM  
Blogger Kyle:

Hi,
Andrew, thanks for a great column. As an environment student who sometimes self-identifies as a 'deep-green', and certainly isn't offended by being called a tree-hugger---but also one who has taken economics (including a course all about economiccs of climate change, what fun!), it is refreshing to hear some intelligent analysis.
I certainly agree that talking about a 40%ish cut in emissions by 2012 is nuts, and am very frustrated by fellow greens who don't understand that making the same cuts over 10 years will lead to a society (and a technology) ready to go the whole whammy in the next forty/fifty years.
As someone who doesn't really wan to be politically invovled, but ends up being sucked in anyway, it is very, very frustrating to hear the politicians still talking in the rhetoric of decades ago- ecological economists must surely bar when they hear Canadian political discourse.
Some other comments:

Elasticity & petrol/fuel
As others have pointed out, it is absolutely clear that in normal economies, the long chain carbons are quite inelastic. Most environmentalists (or at least the ones I go to school with :) ) recognize that we can't change much on five year scales.
Two other points to consider though a) longer term elasticities and b) civilian fuel use in WWII Great Britaint
for a), it is clearly established that oil is quite elastic over long time scales- the 70s energy crunch proved that quite well. A sensible question we should be asking is: How long will it take to roll-over our transportation infrastructure? Looking at the successes of Europe should give us important clues, but we can probably 'leapfrog' significantly by just grabbing their off the shelf technologies. e.g. buying European (or Asian) cars with wicked fuel efficinecies. Of course, this scenario applies to all the other sectors as well.

b) Wartime Britain fuel use
It is interesting to note how quickly and dramatically the entire British economy was retooled, in much the same kind of time-span (if not even more drastic) that we're talking about for the present Kyoto targerts. Also, it was done in a situation where personal fuel consumption was rationed quite stringently. I think that today's generation of economists have a very biased post 1960ish outlook, where large changes in national economies on very short time scales simply never occured.
It is important to note that the 'economy' of Britain, certainly kept people employed, grew GDP etc.

Going into this debate, its useful to look at the kind of large-scale changes we've had. If we're going to stabilize emissions within a decently risk-averse time envelope, we're going to need the kinds of national drive that drove the social programs of the 30s, the war economies of WWII, the social changes of the 60s, and the terribly slow, but indefatigable march towards truly free markets.

To come back a little to our current political situation, and tie Canada into the International scene, I think we really need to start focussing on our role as a (probable) net exporter of 'dirty' fossil fuel energy, and a suppoused leader on climate change.
Canada, because of its climate and oil-sands, should be fighting like hell to play its part through emissions trading and CDM.
Andrew states:
'Last, there is the legal question. The clear expectation at Kyoto was that the greater part of the required reductions would take place domestically. While no specific percentage is mentioned, the Protocol speaks of a “significant element.” The so-called “flexibility” mechanisms were intended to be “supplemental” to domestic action, not a replacement for it. So it would arguably violate at least the spirit of Kyoto to rely so heavily on purchases abroad."

My reaction:
Obvoiusly, this agreement was made before the viability of the Canadian oil sands, and before the world had quite figured out that the really, really big problem was figuring out how to let the developing countries progress without building the hundreds of coal plants currently generated.
The spirit of the Kyoto protocol is clearly that the world needs to make the necessary cuts, but it doesn't really matter how, as long as it is reasonably equitable.
Quite frankly, Canada will have a tough role to play- we don't have the long term outlook of the wily Finns who are saving thier oil reserves for a rainy day (though maybe we should), and our Alberta problem has all that messy internal politics.
There is at least one partial solution though- Canada pours massive amounts of resources into taking international leadership. Since we won't be a real leader in actual cuts for at least a few decades, we have two options-CDMs, and the emissions trading markets.

The CDMs clearly have fantastic future potential, and quite frankly, transferring good western technology/engineering/aid/subsidies is the a necessary pre-requisite to deal with the China problem.

However, we also need to take the moral/ethical/legal (hey sorry, enviro students have touble distinguishing between those), and step up to the plate by buying credits. I'm not sure what kind of work has been done on the effectiveness of them- but the idea is conceptually sound, and is a great place for Canada to take leadership.

cheers,
Kyle Bailey
McGill environment student

22/4/07 11:21 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous:

"I have no objection to this in principle: as with any other import, if it’s cheaper to buy them from foreigners, we should."

So you TOO are jumping abord this bandwagon? Andrew, we're not buying a good or service here, we are buying an OFFSET for pollution, and one that is calculated in a pretty dubious manner. Who has the most of these artificial credits? The nations who brought their A-Game to the bargaining table, you know, with targtes that actually INCREASE emissions as opposed to reducing them. We didn't. So now, we sign on to a treaty that puts us at a competitive disadvantage not only to non-Kyoto countries, but even to even those countries who have signed? Send our money off to Russia, so we meet some artificial deadline and not improve the environment, AT ALL? GHG reduction is fine, climate change action is good and nessesary, but Kyoto is sheer LUNACY, and I think everyone in Ottawa knows it, but still it's used as a political tool to hit each other with.

23/4/07 4:03 AM  
Anonymous Stephen:

Kyle,

Economies do respond. But are you serioulsy suggesting that we look to wartime Britain as the blueprint? Not the time and place I would like to live. Ask anyone who spent any part of their lives in even post war Britain....ration cards etc etc.

Re employment...sure the government, through the armed forces was employing lots of people I am sure carbon emissions were way up on weapons production. Finally, all things were focussed on a single goal, existence.

I am sure the more radical side sees it that way. But that just isnt apparent, sorry funadamental disagreement on basic assumptions.

Anon Green....

Very familiar with Porters study, gosh it is 16 years old now....if you are going by market cap you might be led to increase in the hewers of wood conclusion, due to rises in commodity prices, particularly oil.

In terms of employment numbers, hardly. Even if you looked more closely at the primary industries I would hardly call them basic. There are some particularly sophicticated companies and technologies being brought to bear in those industries.

However, Canada needs to remove a number of productivity barriers to keep going up the value creation chain. Most of these are government induced barriers...but thats another story.

The main point here is around CO2 reductions. Your original point was that 1/3 reduction in Co2 does not mean a 1/3 cut in production. On that I agree, but it isnt costless in any way.

If your goal is a radical reduction in CO2 emissions then the focus can be on certain sectors, tar sands, coal fired plants, cement production etc.

The point about primary industries was that the ripple of shuttig down these industries will flow through the entire economy. If the point seems general it is because it is basic and seems missed. Radical CO2 reduction is not costless and will cause real harm to real people if done suddenly or thoughtlessly.

The rhetoric on both sides is high and heated. Even Suzuki had to back off because he was into a corner, either you have time to do something or you don't. If we have the time, which I believe we do, then lets do it properly and responsibly, blind panic isnt required.

23/4/07 5:25 AM  
Blogger biff:

What's particularly sad about the green movement, is just how much it's based on emotion rather than logic or reason.

I have a poor sap down my street with a couple of kids, trying to jam the kid's hockey equipment into his tiny "smart car",

while China, Russia, Brazil, India ect. churn out more emissions in a week than Canada does in a year.

His sacrifice is completely meaningingless. As is any sacrifice Canadians make. He's been told he can make a differnce though, and he believes it.

The only honest question about Canadians' willingness to change their ways is:

"how much are you willing to sacrifice knowing that any changes made in Canada, no matter how significant, will make no discernable difference to global warming?"

The reason this honest question is never asked is,

Canadians ARE rational.

So those with the agenda must keep Canadians as ignorant as possible on this issue, with the help of a mesmerized agenda driven media.

I suspect history will judge this period as one of media's darkest hours.

23/4/07 6:08 AM  
Blogger biff:

The hand wringing on this site is a perfect example.

Here we have intelligent people in a heated debate about the relative costs associated with saving global warming,

a debate that is reflective of one our country is engaged in on a broader scale.

Implicit in most points made is that there will be some measurable BENEFIT to any cost we incur. We simply assume it.

Yet, we have only 2% OF THE WORLD'S EMISSIONS.

AND THAT'S BEFORE CHINA RAMPS UP THEIR NEW COAL FIRED PLANTS. THE INCREASES (THAT'S RIGHT KIDS JUST THE INCREASES) OF THAT ONE COUNTRY'S EMISSIONS ALONE will equal all of Canada's emissions in the next couple of years.

Any cost is too much, when the benefits are none.

I know, I know, use of basic logic and reason is forbidden in this debate. A heretic I am.

23/4/07 6:24 AM  
Anonymous Stephen:

Biff,

Don't get me werong I think you know where I am on this debate but...As a philsophical point, the benefit can be internal. It makes individual Canadians feel better based on their contribution.

However, this just reinforces the point that coerced action, whihc government action and regulation is, is not a requirement when the sacrifice leads to nought.

Of course there is a cost being imposed. Some believe that GW is AGW, that mankind is causing it and that CO2 is the driver. While it may be a contributor it is certainly less than than certain that it is the driver.

Sorry, dont mean to be a mule about this but it just isnt known. I am willing to pay for an option on protection (i.e. slow it down) but I am unwilling to fully purchase the underlying security, particularly by mortgaging my house, so to speak.

Lets follow a reasonable course, do the things that are obvious and have some initial effect and keep gathering data.

23/4/07 6:58 AM  
Blogger bigcitylib:

This post has been removed by the author.

23/4/07 9:16 AM  
Blogger bigcitylib:

Grithater, of course pressure must be put on automakers to produce more efficient vehicles. But as a practical matter you get more bang for your buck concentrating on the big point sources, which is why they are what everyone is talking about. And on this count, Alberta is by far the worst offender in the country.

Furthermore, some have been bitching on this thread re. international carbon trading, but are willing to consider it at a national level. In either case, money flows out of Alberta. Why it is more acceptable to have it sent to Quebec rather than overseas is a mystery to me (but, if you look at projected emission increases over the next 20 years, that's whats likely to happen).

And seriously, Grtihater, have you EVER won an argument against me?

23/4/07 9:26 AM  
Anonymous Stephen:

Big difference of buying a credit in Quebec or Newfoundland is that you can sertify the project and its effect. Fundamental to know and more importantly believe that the credit you have purchased is real....what if it isnt what is the legal mechanism and who would pay.....

If there were rock solid foreign credits, backed by certification and regulation, so they arent sold twice, etc, then I have no issue.

Once again assuming that CO2 is even the problem that some say it is.....buy an option to prevent yourself from being out of the game, thats the smart move.

23/4/07 9:37 AM  
Blogger Grithater:

BCL, maybe you need to educate yourself. Here are the top emitters in Canada, looks like power generation is the elephant in the room as I said:

Rank
Company Name (may have more than one facility reporting)
Total all Gases (tonnes CO 2 equivalent)
Prov
Percentage

1
Ontario Power Generation
24,887,358
ON
8.97%

2
Transalta Utilities Corporation
22,672,480
AB
8.17%

3
Saskatchewan Power Corporation
13,669,500
SK
4.93%

4
Alberta Power (2000) Ltd.
11,957,574
AB
4.31%

5
Nova Scotia Power Incorporated
10,570,678
NS
3.81%

6
Syncrude Canada Ltd.
10,367,463
AB
3.74%

7
Suncor Energy Inc. Oil Sands
8,599,254
AB
3.10%

8
EPCOR Generation Inc.
6,898,565
AB
2.49%

9
Petro-Canada
5,731,121
AB
2.07%

10
Dofasco Inc
4,863,485
ON
1.75%


Total Top 10 Companies
120,217,478

43%

You have to go down to #6 on the list to get you first oil sands outfit, after NS Power, with a grand total of 3.7$% of emissions. Where are your big point sources?

On arguments, in your mind never. In the minds of disinterested observers, I've probably held my own. In my mind, one that counted, Jan 23, 2006. The rest I don't much care.

In this case the fact remains. Power generation and internal demand are the GHG drivers in this country. Ceasing production in Alberta, making the country poorer, and then importing the energy to live as before makes sense only if your actual goal is to bring Alberta down, not if you wish to do something forthe environment. Now you can tell yourself that you have won another argument, if it makes you feel better.

23/4/07 10:49 AM  
Blogger Kyle Bailey:

Stephen,
I certainly agree war-time Britain wasn't a fun time (my Dad still tells me stories about getting his one orange a yar as a kid :) ), and I don't think Canadians are in any way ready to make such sacrifices. My point was that it is possible to make them- and that when you make crazy large scale changes, it may very well mean job gains, not losses, as happened in WWII. I think most economists loosely accept that the war economy acted as a kind Keynesian stimulus that helped roar the economy out of the depression.
You're right that the radical side does see it as "a single goal, existence."- but then again, you talk to the vast majority of hard scientists, and they'll certainly agree that the normal functioning of our existence is in danger. I suppouse I slip into a so-called radical camp pretty easily- It is difficult not to when your well-established atmospheric chemistry teachers and biology teachers are telling you that massive changes are in the pipeline.
In terms of realistic emissions cuts though, I do agree that talkiing about 40% cuts is very silly in five years. Hell, even if Canadians were sensitized to, and ready for, the kinds of massive changes needed, it would still be difficult- and probaly a bad idea. I'll rip from my own blog entry, which is essentially a reaction to AC's column:
"As someone who has taken Economics of Climate Change, I think that our actual hard emissions targets of ~40% should be on at least a ten-year time basis, not 5 years. Quite honestly, the European leaders (who took much longer than 5 years to make their cuts) would probably say that its a better idea to make deeper cuts, but on longer time-scales. Anyone who has knows the difference between an atmosphere model and a coupled Global Climate Model (aka General Circulation Model) knows that screwing around with Canadian targets over the next two years isn't our most important priorities- it is making sure we spend our next couple of years developing a strategy for Global emissions stabilization before I'm dead.
Quite frankly, if we end up missing our average by say 500 or 1000 Mt (total over five years to 2012), its not a big deal. What is a big deal is if we don't spend the next five years making sure we're ready to cuts tens of thousands on a ten/twenty year timescale. If we push in the wrong places for deep cuts in the next three years and use up political/human/monetary capital in such a way that it jeopardizes our ability to make deep cuts in the future, we'll be screwing our children's future for the sake of feeling good in the next few years.
This doesn't come from some complex climate model- just the knowledge that climate works on timescales of centuries, so we need to be thinking on that time-scale too."

Stephen, overall, I like your posts, and agree that the rhetoric is heated. What ticks me off is that it is generally so far removed from reality on both sides that it isn't useful. Whether or not we're ready to make incremental cuts or big cuts, we need tostop living in the land of the political past, and the cheap shots of getting elected in the next few years.

In regards to the uncertainty of anthropogenic forcing, I'll certainly agree with you. As a science student, it is frustratingfor the uncertainties to get lost. However, the physicial scientists, who have good, empirically grounded recoreds, are giving a pretty high certainty:

"The understanding of anthropogenic warming and cooling influences on climate has improved since the TAR, leading to very high confidence7 that the global average net effect of human activities since 1750 has been one of warming, with a radiative forcing of +1.6 [+0.6 to +2.4] W m–2 (see Figure SPM.2). {2.3., 6.5, 2.9}"

Above is SPM of IPPC WGI, the working group composed of scientists. In fact, most sceintists of the world (including virtually all the independant ones, with the only 'hold-out' I know being Lindzen, and he hasn't said anything/published anything significant for the past couple years), actually argue that the WGI report is quite conservative. One example is the discussion of sea level rise, which now appears to be be much more climate sensitive (but the WGI report wasn't willing to go out on that scientific uncertainty limb).

It is important to note that when boffs say 'very high confidence' they have a well quantified number behind that- 9 out of ten times. I dunno about you, but if I had the largest peer review system in the world telling me, 'unequivically,' that the probability was 90%- I'd certainly be seriously considering your metaphorical mortgage. Then again, I don't own any property, and I have to grow up in the coming uncertainties with quite a few years left, so my viewpoint is ovbiously going to be a little different.
Your metaphor of buying an option is very apt- but I think the signals we're getting from risk management estimators, such as the insurance industry, is certainly starting to point with a strong trend to more serious 'option' purchasing.

It seems to me your risk management is perfectly suited to the scientific uncertainty that was there for the TAR, but is now out of date for the FAR. The scientific certainty has changed signficicantly over the five or six years. The SPM re-iterates the certainty, and compares it to previous ones:
"Most of the observed increase in global average temperatures since the mid-20th century is very likely due to the observed increase in anthropogenic greenhouse gas concentrations.12 This is an advance since the TAR’s conclusion that “most of the observed warming over the last 50 years is likely to have been due to the increase in greenhouse gas concentrations”. Discernible human influences now extend to other aspects of climate, including ocean warming, continental-average temperatures, temperature extremes and wind patterns (see Figure SPM.4 and Table SPM.2). {9.4, 9.5}"

Again, 'very likely' is qualified as 9 out of 10 or more. In fact, it is interesting to note that they were actually considering the 'virtually certain' category quite seriously. One of my profs was a contributing author, and he pointed out that not quite all the scientists thought it was 'virually certina) (which is 99% probability)....but that EVERY single one agreed it was 90%, which is why the word 'unequivical' is in the executive summary.

Of course, I appreciate you being a 'mule,' and pointing out that it isn't totally certain- but as with all economic transactions, we don't have much choice other than going with the best quantification, and hedging our bets in both directions of the uncertainties.

Bigcitylib, and grithater,
You guys seem to be arguing at cross-purposes. The cuts needed for deep emissions reductions will need to take place at all of the sources' margins. Sure, some sources, such as power generation fo Ontario are largest in aggregate, and some sources, such as the tar sands, have a high per-capita impact- but if we're going to make real cuts, everyone's margin will have big cuts.

23/4/07 11:37 AM  
Blogger paul.obeda@:

Kyle: there are a few key misconceptions which need to be addressed. First, "FAR" is the "First Assessment Report", not the fourth (which is abbreviated "AR4").

Second, the AR4 is not as highly peer-reviewed as you suggest. In fact, it is likely that no statisticians (who own the terminology surrounding likelihoods) actively participated. Those statisticians who have publicly commented on the little available documentation (the actual reports having not yet been released) have reacted adversely to the IPCC approach. While many scientists have contributed to the reports, scientific peer review is not a key part of the process.

Third, I don't believe that Canadians would accept total destruction of our cities in order to employ people in a rebuilding effort, as your WWII analogy suggests.

Finally, as AC stated, Kyoto limits kick in eight months from now, not in five years. Any interim shortfall must be made up within that five year interval to achieve the required five-year average.

Additionally, to others: Nanticoke emits much less CDE per kWh than other coal-fired plants in Ontario, and than most other plants in North America.

23/4/07 2:06 PM  
Anonymous KRB:

I'd like to see an argument where BCL thinks he won. I haven't seen one instance of this. It just seems like he posts for a bit, and then turns tail once he realizes that he's shot off his mouth too much too early.

I don't recall even one instance of BCL putting forth a cogent argument. But whatever.

23/4/07 2:54 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous:

"But as a practical matter you get more bang for your buck concentrating on the big point sources, which is why they are what everyone is talking about."

BCL is right here. And the big point sources that can easily be reduced is Ontario's manufacturing sector. I really don't know why Alberta is worried. The oil is stuck in the ground there. It's not like those jobs can be easily outsourced to China and save Canada megatonnes of carbon emissions.

The best part about it is that by moving our manufactering sector to China and India and putting the province out of work, we'd somehow be saving the world. Hooray!

23/4/07 3:44 PM  
Blogger bigcitylib:

Anon 3:44,

You are either making a lame attempt at humor or you don't undeerstand what "point source" means in this context.

23/4/07 4:17 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous:

Sorry, but Biff is right here. We could shut down Canada entirely tomorrow and go live underneath a couch with BCL and the emissions savings would not even match HALF of the INCREASES that China and India will see over the next 10 years.

Get real. Nothing we do will have any effect on Global Warming/Climate Change/ The Religion of Gore. To suggest otherwise is just pure unfounded arrogance.

23/4/07 5:15 PM  
Anonymous yyc:

Kudos to Kyle for pointing out that Canada's role as an energy exporter needs to condition our approaches.

To take an extreme example, Saudi Arabia's oil exports are almost the only thing that matters when we talk about them. Yet when we talk of Canada which might be the #2 world energy producer for more than a few decades this century, we hear some parties talk about hard caps on the energy sector as though Canada's contribution should be to keep much of the third world on dirty coal.

In general it makes more sense to go deeper over 15 years than to slash in a few. It also makes more sense to accept deeper cuts in the next round than to send cash abroad for unclear benefits. The option to do deeper cuts is in the treaty for a reason folks.

But as an energy exporter we should especially focus on plowing CO2 funds into two things: the energy production and energy consumption technology we will be be using and exporting in 2020.

This applies to coal, but it also applies to the oil sands. Sure we can retrofit sequestering emissions from the current generation and to the extent that conserves fresh water great. But most of these reserves will be developed with in-situ technology and plowing oil sands revenue into the C02 footprint of those emerging technologies is even more important.

Or we can just go back to waving our hands and pointing at various regions.

23/4/07 6:08 PM  
Blogger Grithater:

BCL blabbers: "You are either making a lame attempt at humor or you don't undeerstand what "point source" means in this context."

Actually BCL, he or she is well out in front of you, by implicitly recognizing that the end user is the issue, not the energy producer. This means that a paper mill as an example is a point source because of the electricity it uses. Stop using paper, and GHG's are reduced. Stop generating electricity, the papermill moves to somwhere that is, no GHG's reduced. Pretty simple. Same with the oilsands. What they make is not an end product, so responsibility for the GHG's lies much more with the consumer, than the oil company. Stop using so much energy, demand goes down, inefficient sources like the sands shut down first. If oil was still $20 bucks a barrel, nobody would be talking about the oilsands.

23/4/07 7:21 PM  
Blogger Kyle Bailey:

Paul,
Thanks for pointing out correct name- I think I like the symbolism of referring to it as 'far' but it is obviously confusing.

In regard to peer review, there are 3 different review rounds, one done by the author themselves (where they send it to other people they know in the field, equivalent to contributions in a specialized journal where everyone knows everybody else), one that is done by technical experts in the field, which is of course the exact same process as any reputable scientific journal, and one that is open to pretty much everybody.
In fact, one of my profs, who contributed a reactively small amount, got lots, and lots of comments- many times more than any normal peer review process.
With this in mind, I'm not exactly sure what you mean by not strongly peer-reviewed. Compared to most standards for peer review, a couple paragraphs gets way more than entire papers usually get.

I really don't understand your 'statistician' comments. Statisticians are very good at manipulating- how could a statistician come up with a better element of probabilities of, say, upper stratospheric heating than an atmospheric scientist?
Statisticians are good at situational analysis of present models- but in order to make climate predictions, you need to use genetic models, not the situational empiric models. I'd also like to point out that the IPCC, is, in many ways, a summary of what GCMs produce. The GCMs themselves get extremely rigorous statistical tests- they would be no good without them. There is a burgeoning field of physical scientists who do statistical tests in this area, and they definitely play a large role (if not THE role) in the building, testing/revising of GCMs.

Statisticians are really good at predicting what is 'statistically significant'- but when it comes down to the complex, chaotic system that is our biosphere, they certainly don't 'own' the probabilities.

On WWII anaolgy
I don't think I mentioned destruction of cities- in fact, given the fact that we wouldn't be having infrastructure bombings, we could probably make drastic retoolings of the economy with much lower cost than in WWII. Regardless- I have re-iterated that Canadians aren't ready for this kind of massive change. The analogy is a thought experiment to prove that it is certainly possible. Maybe as soon as we get a real Churchillian environmentalist :)


YYC, very good points, could you possibly expand on the 'deeper cuts' option you mentioned? I wasn't aware of it.

I would take issue with the idea of 'sending money' elsewhere as useless though. Canadians, in particular, my generation, stand a lot to gain from reductions in CO2 no matter where they are, and if it is cheaper for us to 'import' those reductions, then we should do so. A ton of CO2 not produced in Russia is just as valuable to us as one not produced in a region.

YYC also makes a great point about using the oil revenues for technology development. To tie this in with 'sending money overseas,' i would argue that we should be using these revenues not just to clean up own energy production, but do it in the many developing nations. As some of the rather more, uh, extreme members have pointed out, we're a small part of the wedge. By learning how to reduce our part, we should hopefully be able to make both political and real capital (through a decent CDM mechanism) from helping other countries reach our level of affluence.


"Or we can just go back to waving our hands and pointing at various regions."
So tragically true, Ken Dryden has recently been criticizing non-liberals for splitting the countries apart- but I'm pretty sure that teh Libs are just as guilty. I think its time for 'ordinary' Canadians to start demanding a discourse more useful/complex than 'we can't fuck over region x in a particualr way and piss them off.' Aas in the good old capitalist system- every needs to adapt, real quick, and there will be winners and losers all across the country. I don't think there is any empirical evidence that any particular region will be more hard hit (possible exception of Northern communities, who will undergo changes so large its hard to imagine any kind of proper coping).

I better cut myself from commenting for a while off- got to study, but I'll leave with a JFK quote:
"In the long history of the world, only a few generations have been granted the role of defending freedom in its hour of maximum danger."

23/4/07 7:25 PM  
Blogger Fred :):

the IPCC peer review process has been vastly over stated. Its been warped by the leaders of the various teams who views head the process and teh handful of GhG zealots who write the SPM's.

Proof?

How did the Little Ice Age & the Medievel Warm period get nuked out of existence in favor of the infamous Mann "Hockey Stick" fraud.

How ?? 2000 peer reviewers ??

Another IPCC fraud . . . . there are 2000+ names of reviewers BUT only about 650 unique names.

Why won't most of the key IPCC contributors release their data so other scientists can evaluate them ?? Why are individuals forces to go to court and get Freedom of Information orders, ORDERS, to get the data released,

Why ?? Because the IPCC scientists, the hard core Believers, have been committing fraud and it is catching up to them.


You can follow the pathetic attempts of the IPCC fraudsters ate Steve McIntyre's great website

http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1479#more-1479



If ya want institutionalized fraud, the IPCC & the UN are your babies.

23/4/07 7:52 PM  
Anonymous Larry:

The paper below was presented at the conference "Climate Change: Evaluating Appropriate Responses". Brussels, European Parliament, 18 April 2007 by Benny Peiser, Liverpool John Moores University, Faculty of Science, Liverpool L2 3ET, UK -- b.j.peiser@livjm.ac.uk

Two weeks ago, climate experts and government officials from 130 countries released the latest IPCC Summary for Policy Makers on the 'Impacts, Adaptation and Vulnerability of Climate Change'. The IPCC's predictions of the future were carefully scrutinised by governments and generally accepted. Despite attempts to tone down some of the more alarming language, the latest IPCC report predicts that unrestrained warming will cause mass extinctions, devastating floods, heatwaves, storms and droughts that may trigger economic disaster and social upheaval.

There can be little doubt that scientists, science organisations and the dominant science media have been instrumental in turning doom-laden computer models into an apocalyptic consensus. For the last 10 years or so, there has been a relentless outpouring of disaster predictions that have been published with little hesitation and rising alarm by the world's leading science journals. Any lingering reservation about looming catastrophe has been silenced by science editors and environmental journalists. Uncertainties have been conveniently disregarded and highly unlikely worst case scenarios exaggerated. Not since the apocalyptic consensus of the Middle Ages has the prognostication of impending doom and global catastrophe on the basis of mathematical modelling been as widely accepted as today. No question about it: The IPCC's disaster predictions have been converted into a general consensus among the world's political and academic elites.

Ironically, these apocalyptic predictions of the future are politically sanctioned at the same time as a growing number of scientists are recognising that environmental and economic computer modelling of an inherently unpredictable future is illogical and futile (see, O.H. Pilkey and L Pilkey-Jarvis: "Useless Arithmetic: Why environmental scientists can't predict the future", Columbia University Press, 2007). As the eminent mathematician David Orrell has pointed out persuasively: "The track record of any kind of long-distance prediction is really bad, but everyone's still really interested in it. It's sort of a way of picturing the future. But we can't make long-term predictions of the economy, and we can't make long-term predictions of the climate. Models will cheerfully boil away all the water in the oceans or cover the world in ice, even with pre-industrial levels of CO2 When models about the future climate are in agreement, it says more about the self-regulating group psychology of the modelling community than it does about global warming and the economy." (David Orrell, "Apollo's Arrow. The Science of Prediction and the Future of Everything", 2007)

Be that as it may, the reality of the IPCC consensus should not be underestimated. Its political weight and growing demands for drastic economic intervention is posing a serious political predicament for many governments, most of which find themselves unable to control let alone reduce CO2 emissions that are rising almost everywhere.

Paradigms, Consensus and Falsification

Science based on "consensus" is a tricky business. I am agnostic about it because the history of science tells us that today's consensus can, and quite frequently is, tomorrow's redundant theory. There are certain types of general agreements in science that are more compelling and more durable than others. In some areas of empirical science, like solar system astronomy, there is more agreement because the data is more robust and the methods less complex. The more complex the science and the less reliable the data, the more scientific controversy you should expect to find.

On the other hand we also know that science tends to produce - and in fact needs - scientific paradigms -- which is perhaps a better word than consensus. So I have really no problem with the fact of a majority consensus on climate change. But science would quickly come to a dead end without the constant and necessary attempts to falsify the leading paradigm of the day, particularly those that are weak and based on contentious data, dodgy methodologies and flawed computer models.

Indeed, some critics argue that climate science has almost reached such a cul-de-sac. The scientific endeavour involves both the protectors and challengers of each and every paradigm. Both are essential to the health and dynamic of a highly competitive enterprise that is science. No consensus is sacrosanct. And it is in the very nature of science and science communication that all reasonable positions and counter-arguments should be heard. The ongoing controversy about hurricanes and global warming is a perfect example of the predicaments of consensus science. It also demonstrates that advocates who exploit the consensus argument against climate sceptics are more than happy to oppose the consensus - if it helps to further an alarmist agenda.

For a long time, and until fairly recently, natural variability was the lead paradigm underlying the dynamic changes in hurricane frequency and intensity. In the last two years or so, a small number of papers published in the world's leading academic journals Science and Nature have cast doubt over this long-established paradigm. Climate campaigners and science journalists jumped to conclusions and claimed: "The old paradigm is dead - long live the new paradigm!" It is noteworthy, however, that both the recent consensus statements by the World Meteorological Organisation (WMO) as well as the latest IPCC statements on hurricanes and global warming maintain rather than overturn the old paradigm. At the same time, they caution us about the weight of the new papers.

I believe this is an encouraging development because it would appear to raise the requirements for overthrowing old paradigms. Let me also remind you about the dodgy process that removed from the old IPCC consensus the Medieval Warm Period and the Little Ice Age and replaced it with the notorious Hockey Stick consensus. A few enthusiastically received papers were able to overturn the old consensus - mainly because they undermined the important argument by climate sceptics about the degree of Holocene climate variability. Science journalists bought into the new Hockey Stick "consensus" sink line, and hooker [Good one!]. However, their prejudice was evidently laid bare by the extraordinary reluctance to report or report impartially about its flaws and the controversy it generated.

Similar problems can be observed regarding the thorny issue of sea level rise: is it more or less steady (as the IPCC claims) or is it accelerating, as climate alarmists claim? The mainstream science media have no qualms in hyping up new papers that go against the IPCC consensus. At the same time, the same outlets ignore other studies that confirm an inconvenient consensus that climate alarmist regard as too conservative and thus pose an impediment for political action.

I could go on and on: while alarmist claims and predictions are routinely puffed up by the science media and environmental journalists, studies that come to more moderate and less alarmist conclusions are habitually ignored or discredited for being too cautious.

From editorial bias to confirmation bias

Over the last 10 years or so, the editors of the world's leading science journals such as Science and Nature as well as popular science magazines such as Scientific American and New Scientist have publicly advocated drastic policies to curb CO2 emissions. At the same time, they have publicly attacked scientists sceptical of the climate consensus. The key message science editors have thus been sending out is brazen and simple: "The science of climate change is settled. The scientific debate is over. It's time to take political action."

Instead of serving as an honest and open-minded broker of scientific controversy, science editors have opted to take a rigid stance on the science and politics of climate change. In so doing, they have in effect sealed the doors for any critical assessment of the prevailing consensus which their journals officially sponsor. Consequently, their public endorsement undoubtedly deters critics from submitting falsification attempts for publication. Such critiques, not surprisingly, are simply non-existing in the mainstream science media.

But there is more to the problem than just editorial promoting of the scientific consensus. After all, such behaviour is not restricted to the issue of climate change. Editorial bias is often found among other science journals on many other controversies. Much more problematic is the reality of a strong confirmation bias among science editors. While the phenomenon of confirmation bias is an intensely researched and well established form of selective thinking among medical and economic researchers, this methodological impediment is completely ignored in climate science.

Any careful examination of the publishing record of leading science journals will show that science editors too tend to favour the publication of papers that confirm their publicly stated beliefs rather than question them. That is why science editors habitually ignore or treat with contempt any evidence that contradicts their core beliefs. Many critical scientists can confirm that prominent science editors have turned down their papers and have become reluctant to the point of refusal to publish any evidence that attempts to refute their favoured theory.

Of course, climate scientist themselves are routinely accused of confirmation bias for running statistical models and framing their data in such a way that it predictably confirms their hypothesis. After all, research into confirmation and other biases has shown that the scientific method incorporates an inherent tension between hard data and their interpretation by scientists with deeply held convictions. Good science journals critically evaluated and peer review the quality of data and the likelihood of error.

This deceptively reliable process of scrutiny and quality control, however, is itself prone to confirmation bias: peer reviewers selected by biased editors are more likely to accept evidence that supports their own prior belief while rejecting arguments and data that may challenge these convictions (Kaptchuk, 2003). Any science medium that ignores or fail to appreciate these inherent pitfalls of climate science can no longer be regarded as trustworthy.

The end of fair and objective science journalism

For the last few years, a number of influential climate scientists and science writers have conducted a campaign against the principles of fair and balanced journalism that epitomize open and pluralistic societies. The main accusation against impartial reporting on climate change is quite simple: An article in the Boston Globe on climate change journalism sums up the key argument: "More and more environmentalists and climate scientists have been making the point that ''objective" journalists are doing as much as anyone (except maybe Hummer enthusiasts) to forestall action on global warming." (Christopher Shea, Boston Globe, 9 April 2006) Or, in the words of media analysts Boykoff and Boykoff: "A more subtle factor that helps explain US inaction (sic) also exists: journalists' faithful adherence to their professional norms (like objectivity, fairness, accuracy, balance)... (Boykoff and Boykoff, Geoforum 2007, in press)

In short, climate campaigners and science activists are concerned that any doubts or uncertainties expressed in the media may hinder the political objective for drastic action. No wonder then that science editors and campaigners have employed strategies to discourage or intimidate reporters from even asking climate sceptics about their assessment. Michael Mann (Penn State University), for instance, has warned science writers that even to quote a climate sceptic would be regarded as if they had granted ''the Flat Earth Society an equal say with NASA in the design of a new space satellite." (Boston Globe, 9 April 2006). The editor of Scientific American, John Rennie, publicly refers to dissenters as ''denialists" and said that "to give them even one paragraph in a 10-paragraph article would be to exaggerate their importance." (Boston Globe, 9 April 2006)

Occasionally, a probing science reporter dares to challenge these forms of coercion despite the threats of mockery and intimidation. In such cases, a whole army of climate campaigners and bloggers will rush to assail the insubordinate journalist, as science writers such as Bill Broad and John Tierney of the New York Times can attest.

In Britain, it has become routine for leading science organisations such as the Royal Society to press-gang the media against publishing critical reporting on climate change. Lord May, the former, president of the Royal Society publicly censured newspapers such as The Daily Telegraph and the Daily Mail for publishing sceptical articles and comments. May also tried to silence respected writers such as David Bellamy, Melanie Phillips and Michael Hanlon by intimidating them personally. In 2005, the then vice-president of the Royal Society, Sir David Wallace, warned the British media not to publish anything that distorted the official view of climate science: "We are appealing to all parts of the UK media to be vigilant against attempts to present a distorted view of the scientific evidence about climate change and its potential effects on people and their environments around the world. I hope that we can count on your support." (The Daily Telegraph, 16 May 2005)

The attacks by science editors and campaigners on critical scientists are not only fuelled by political considerations. Sometimes they are due to blind faith in an apocalyptic future, as a recent editorial in New Scientist reveals: "One of the most corrosive contributions of climate sceptics has been to promote any uncertainty as an excuse for inaction. In truth, the remaining uncertainties should be making us redouble our efforts to mitigate climate change. It's a fair bet that much of what we do not yet know for sure will turn out to be scarier than most of us like to imagine." In other words, the editors of New Scientist are certain that what we do not know today will, upon knowing it in the future, prove to be even worse than they fear. Evidently, such hyperbole has nothing to do with science but belongs to the realm of superstitious divination.

While climate campaigners are trying to frame even the political and economic debate in the traditional fashion of a conflict between consensus and dissent, the political debate is no longer about action versus inaction. The real issue today is about the most cost-effective ways of dealing with climate change: revolutionary transformation of the global economy, as advocated by climate alarmists, or gradual adaptation and adjustment as proposed by climate moderates.

The role of the science media as the maid of government policy

Climate campaigners and environmental media analysts have become convinced that their crusade against impartial science reporting has been won comprehensively. According to this view, the neo-catastrophist framing of climate change has been generally accepted by most science journalists and is now consistently communicated by most news media outlets.

Yet campaigners worry that the political battle is far from won. Thus, in a recent article published by the British Journalism Review, media researchers Eleni Andreadis and Joe Smith warn that the next contest poses an ever greater challenge to science journalism: "We are entering a period when careful interpretation and communication of the economic, political and social dimensions of climate change will be vital. Failure to tell these aspects of the story could be of even greater significance than the painfully slow arrival at the basics of the science. The media will offer the context within which we decide the If, How and When of transforming energy-hungry lifestyles and economies... The open terrain of these questions presents media decision-makers with a new set of challenges, and the way they handle scepticism will again be central to their performance." (British Journalism Review, Vol. 18, No. 1, February 2007).

Andreadis and Smith underscore the role of journalists in framing the climate change debates and assisting governments to enforce drastic policies: "Their principal question should be: Will this help to reduce emissions dramatically, or is it a way of only denting the status quo?". Andreadis and Smith have delineated the science media's political role in no uncertain terms. In a illuminating paragraph, they outline new programme of salvationist campaign journalism: "In dealing with these [climate change] stories the media will also need to marry their critical faculties to a commitment to enable debate about action and change. You can barely fill a taxi with senior mainstream politicians from Western Europe who do not believe action to mitigate and adapt to climate change is necessary. But most are frightened of sticking their necks out. They need to be given the space to think and experiment and lead public debate on action." (British Journalism Review, Vol. 18, No. 1, 2007).

In other words, the role of science and environmental journalists is to provide governments with media support that will enable reluctant decision makers to enforce unpopular policies.

The crisis of science communication

Despite the majority consensus among climate scientists, science organisations and governments, there is a sizeable minority of researchers, economists and political observers who are concerned about the apocalyptic nature of climate hype and the potential risk it poses for political and economic stability. Sceptical researchers have and will continue to publish critical papers that question important parts of even some fundaments of the current climate consensus. Will the science media provide a platform for these critiques? Will they discuss the weight of their evidence and the validity of their arguments? Or will the science media continue to ignore challenges to the status quo?

The absurdity of the science media's handling of climate science is well illuminated in this week's issue of New Scientist. In an editorial, the editors try to square the principle of falsification (which they claim is vital for science to progress) with their belief that any such attempt would undermine political attempts to mitigate climate disaster: "Some scientists are challenging our ideas on climate change, which is vital if we are to progress. But to overturn present thinking will need very strong evidence because, as the IPCC states, confidence in the idea that anthropogenic warming is changing our world has never been higher." (New Scientist, 14 April 2007).

Yet, at the same time, the editor's zealous defence of the apocalyptic climate consensus and their fierce resistance to provide critical researchers a forum for rebuttals or falsification attempts undermines their own integrity.

Let me conclude: The integrity of the science media will depend on whether it will encourage critique and fault-finding analysis by consensus sceptics - or whether they will continue its course towards unbalanced campaign journalism. Given the well-documented reluctance of mainstream science media to accept submissions by critical scientists and the aversion to report on critical papers published elsewhere, I remain unconvinced that science journalism will moderate its blinkered attitudes in the near future.

The diverse groups of critical analysts and researchers will need to develop alternative infrastructures and media outlets if they wish to provide open-minded science writers with judicious evaluations of disaster predictions and a genuinely impartial assessment of evidence. Given the evident biases mainstream science media and environmental journalism has chosen to adopt, there is a growing demand for more balanced and even-handed coverage of climate change science and debates. Scientists and science writers who are concerned about the integrity and openness of the scientific process should turn the current crisis of science communication into an opportunity by setting up more critical, even-handed and reliable science media.

23/4/07 10:48 PM  
Blogger paul.obeda@:

Kyle, what you describe as the IPCC's Peer Review process is not what the IPCC themselves claim as their own process.

In fact, they do not submit the reports for Peer Review, although they do share it (mostly in smaller sections) for comments and input among co-authors and experts selected by the authors. It is based on literature which has been peer-reviewed, or from other sources for which credibility is closely scrutinized.

And while the IPCC defenders will note that contrarian scientists have participated in the authorship process, it is obvious to even a casual reader that contrarian opinions are not reflected in the final reports (despite the IPCC requirements that the full breadth of current scientific opinion be reflected).

That being said, the participating scientists (co-authors) do seem to love to pretend that this is a peer review process. (And no, I did not claim that "typical" peer review processes are perfect; studies have demonstrated many flaws.) The IPCC refer to the process as one of "Expert Review", not peer review.

As for stats: terms such as "very likely" have a very specific meaning in statistics; a meaning which does not correspond to that given in the lastest IPCC WG1 SPM. Despite ample opportunity to do so, it is not even clear that proper statistical methods were applied to the most basic measurement analyses.

23/4/07 11:53 PM  
Anonymous springer:

Classic Earl McCrae!

Heh!

24/4/07 11:49 AM  
Anonymous Stephen:

Kyle,

Here is an example of someone who was a "peer reviewer" of the IPCC and can give one persons view of the process they went through.

Now one person does not make a trend but if you look I thnk you'll find there are issues

http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=640

As an interesting note I heard Roberta Bondar on Andy Barrie this morning. Andy is an over the moon, heart on the sleeve leftie. Into all of the good left causes so he was in full flower on AGW with Roberta.

He even swooned over Al Gore and the "salient moment for him" when he mentioned the big peer reviewed process but how the big bad media always claimed there was doubt.

Well....to her credit she wouldnt bite. She stated doubt was important, that most scientists agreed the world was in a warmig trend but that there was lost s of debate around humnanities role in it.

Ahhh the voice of reason. Her views may be that there AGW exists but she is a pro scientist and defends the scientific process. Poor Andy didnt know where to go, he thought he was at an Al Gore fan club interview and turned out he had a real scientist on his hands.

Good for Roberta!!!

Scientific consensus gets used as a debate killer, make no mistake it is rhetorical device of the most insidious type.

The answer is WE DON'T KNOW. 90% confidence intervals, weill interesting are still an issue. Nobody would trust a political poll that was right 18 times out of 20.....the gold standard is a 95% confidence interval....that last 5% is very hard to get.

As well, you need to be clear on what the 90% referenced. I believe it was that manknd was a contribitor, not the major contributor to GW....different questions, but I may be wrong.

24/4/07 12:40 PM  
Blogger Kyle Bailey:

Paul,

I've known about the climateaudit website, and about the criticisms of some more climate-based scientists (e.g. Lindzen) for quite a while. I had a great course with
an economist which was entirely on economics of climate change. He is a great prof- included the foundational contrarian readings, such as Lindzen and we discussed Mcitrick, and a bunch of the others.
I made two 90% references, and the second one very clearly is about AGW.

I'll repeat it to save you scrolling:
""Most of the observed increase in global average temperatures since the mid-20th century is very likely due to the observed increase in anthropogenic greenhouse gas concentrations."
Its on page 10 of the SPM. I think "most of" is strong enough to declare 'the major contributor.'

In regards to confidence levels, yeah sure, it would be nice to have higher ones- but when they're not available, you work with what you have. None of us like doing it, cetinaly not the hard scientists who are loath to turn an academic hypothesis into a real world shitstorm, but its not as if we ahve much choice. If we waited for perfect certainty, we'd be....perfectly certain that we're fucked! Thats not to say we can't raise the certainties, and the recent work has done an impressive job of pinning down many variables of climate sensitivity.

Unfortunately, climate scientists, and other earth scientists, are not nearly as numerous as they ought to be. Frankly, we should have politicians mentioning specific research priorites for public universities as earth science. I suspect insurance industries will start hiring more and more earth scientists ona private basis.

In regards to my description of the peer review process- it came straight from the horses mouth. One of my profs has described it twice to student audiences that i was participating (or in one case, organizing). I've got to study for an environmental hydroogy exam for the next 9 hours, but I'll try and get some clarification from him after that (hmmm...maybe I'll ask him after the exam :), its his course ). I'll post a link to my blog on what I figure out here, and probably make quite a long post- the controversy and mis-information (probably from both sides!) is fascinating.

Just out of curiosity what is Roberta Bondar's specializations?

Larry-thanks for the pointer. I don't have time to do more than skim it now, but I'll comment on it later. McItrick (I'm sur I'm misspelling his name) is a Canadian scientist (UoGuelph) who makes much the same point.

I'd really like to see a good peer-reviewed paper criticizing the procees. The irony of commenting on a peer-review process, and not subjecting yourself to peer-review is kinda amusing. On that note, do you have any knowledge on how the paper was received and what kind of comments it got from the floor? Was it just a poster-board job, or did he do a presentation?

Fred, I think there are 2000 peer-reviewers, and 650 contributing authors. Peer-reviewers aren't named, by convention. I suspect there is a list of the 2000 unique peer reviewers buried somewhere in the IPCC beuaracracy.

I'd say calling it 'fraud' is a bit much. You're unlikely to win converts onto the 'question the IPCC reports' bandwagon with that kind of language.

Its interesting replies from everybody- I think having a public forum where people encourage me to question the conventions and prevailing views of my professors is an experience unique to the 21st century student!

cheers,
Kyle

24/4/07 3:30 PM  
Anonymous Larry:

"Just out of curiosity what is Roberta Bondar's specializations?"

wanna bet its not fruit fly scientist ??

24/4/07 4:01 PM  
Anonymous yyc:

Kyle:

I refer you to the penalty option that might make sense for Canada in the SHORT TERM.

UNFCCC Kyoto Protocol Compliance Introduction:

...require the Party to make up the difference between its emissions and its assigned amount during the second commitment period, plus an additional deduction of 30%"

-- http://tinyurl.com/yr5t59

Specifically targeted at the non-compliant it provides a 7% per annum compound penalty for shortfalls.

Given the odd case of Canada as an emerging global energy supplier off to a very late start and facing the prospect of crash measures that may do more harm than good to our evolution as a displacer of coal, this provision might be a better short term harbour than buying massively on a thin international carbon market.

As a transitional step it would make more sense to plow oil sands revenue into cleaner next gen oil sands technology than to send it to folks that have excess quota due to temporary GNP shrinkage. Let's not forget that most oil sands reserves won't even be tapped with the current technology, so diverting cash into that research rather than elsewhere could have tremendous long term effects.

I'd rather see a mixed focus on cleaning up future internal and external energy production over the next period even with penalties and staying away from purchasing credits until the next period which will likely be very different in any case.

24/4/07 4:05 PM  
Blogger paul.obeda@:

Kyle, it would be helpful to address responses to the person who made the comment, rather than naming someone else.

You talk about hearing about the review process from the "horse's mouth". I acknowledged that. But that's NOT the process which the IPCC publicly claims to pursue, and which the IPCC requires of the WGs. And as others have pointed out, that's also not the experience of others.

And I can quote incorrect statements made by the IPCC as easily as you did. Terms such as "very likely", "90% confidence interval", etc have very specific meanings which have been usurped and incorrectly applied by the IPCC in order to bolster their view and suppress opposition.

Repeating the mistakes of the IPCC does nothing to correct them, but only serves to annoy good folks who kindly pointed out the error.

24/4/07 5:44 PM  
Anonymous stephen:

She is a neurologist and a major researcher in Alzheimers

The point wasnt that she is an expert on climate or that she was in agreement or disagreement, she didnt say.

What she pointed to was the scientific process. It was her neurtrality and defence of doubt and skepticism in general, not specific to AGW that I appreciated.

As I said, good ole Andy was trying to rouse up a good lynching of "deniers".

Nice website from her too...she has a photo exhibit at First Canadian Place for those in the downtown Toronto core.

http://www.robertabondar.com/home.php

24/4/07 7:31 PM  
Blogger Kyle Bailey:

Paul,
Very sorry for screwing up whom I was replying to. Someday, someone will write code to allow responses to quote multiple authors, bloggers will use it- and I won't feel like an idiot for misaddressing responses. :)

I believe the author-selected processes and the 'experts in the field' process are two seperate rounds (the first two rounds I described. I think the only difference betwee our two perceptions is that I'm fairly sure there is a third round, where many, many stakeholders can comment. I don't know if its fully public, but I suspect its pretty easy to get into the process.

I would argue that when every small bit of the report is extensively peer-reviewed then the whole report is at a much, much higher standard of peer review than any other kind of report or paper. I take it that it is this argument that you take issue with?

I think we should probably make the distinction between the SPM and the technical report here. I suspect we both generally agree that the technical report is pretty well reviewed. I suspect that the 'contrarian' science people claim is 'swept under the rug' has at least some passing mention in the yet-to-be-publically posted Technical report. Ovbiously there will be debate over how much emphasis to place on specific conflicting theories- but this is inevitable. Many, many studies probably have authors who thought they should have been cited in the IPCC report- the fact that we only hear about the 'contrarian' ones is a function of what we're interested in.


Sorry if repeating the AGW statement was somehow extremely annoying to you- it should have been addressed to Stephen who specifically asked about the 90% prob and AGW question.

On the question of probabilities, statisticians don't 'own' the concept of probabilities! Physical scientists use the concepts that measurements and predictions have predictable variation in them whenever they do an experiment. For example most physical measurement are done with instruments whose output error variation is very well known. For example, the difference between say, precipitation recorded in a rain gauge and actual precipitation often has a very well known variation- so a hydrologist is perfectly justified to use the concepts of probability.

You point this out yourself by talking about using statistical tests on measurement analyses. Without using quantification of accuracy (aka as probability/confidence interval!) it would be impossible to depend on the measurements.

tous le mondes:
Does anyone have link handy to where the review process is explained?

stephen,
Point well taken that it was a general comment from a scientist (though apparently she is leading a review about envr and conservation in Ontario curriculums, which is interesting). I certainly agree that we should always stress that uncertainty is present. The fact that there is debate about humanity's role in it is certainly not something to be ignored. However, in the absence of a whole bunch of new information, or a new explanation which fits current information better, we have to work with the one we've got. My point isn't 'ignore uncertainty' its lets work with the best estimate of uncertainty we've got.

Of course, the media types who try and lynch the deniers are just silly, and create needless confrontation. I've always appreciated the independant minds of scientists, and have deep respect for those whom

yyc,
Thanks a lot for the link, and the explanation. I still think that purchasing credits is probably a good idea though. Obviously that depends upon how much cessation such foreign capital investment would create compared to how much domestic it would create if re-invested. If the investment of foreign capital in Russia allows it to re-grow its GNP without heavy carbonization, and if such a reindustrialization is cheaper/GDP in dollar terms, than the global economic evaluation clearly points to doing that. Of course, it would be foreign aid at that point, but Canada has certainly made less useful foreing aid priorities than stabilizing climate for future Canadians. Of course, as a "radical" I say we should do both :)

Larry,
Not sure what your fruit fly comment was about- entomolgists specializing in fruit flies are just as likely to make astute observations about the need for doubt in the scientific process as and Alzheimers specialist!
By the way, the conferance was one put on solely for questioning the consensus on climate change. Very interesting that such a conference exists. I'd find it more interesting/relevant if there were physical scientists questioning the conclusions though. I don't think Lindzen (one of the very few actual climate contrarian scientists) has said anything for a while- I tend to place much greater weight on physical scientists criticisms than social scientists (Dr. Peiser is a social anthropologist). I imagine we'll get more discourse after the technical report is released.

As an interesting aside, social scientists are much more likely to use shitty statistics than most physical scientists (since social science uses much more qualititavie data, and its practicers often kinda fudege quantities).

tous les mondes,
Especially those who have questioned the 90% number- Is there a peer-reviewed, published paper that gives some other quantification? I realize that many people take issue with the 90% number, but unless there is a different number and therefore a different 'explanation,' it is all rather pointless. As I belieive I said earlier, many scientists were pushing for 'extremely likely' (95%) not 90%. I think a fair amount of people think the chances that GW was AGW in the recent past are lower- it would be really nice to hear why. The physics of CO2 causing radiative forcing certainly isn't disputed- Arhennius got it mostly right more than 100 years ago.

24/4/07 8:57 PM  
Anonymous Larry:

"Larry,
Not sure what your fruit fly comment was about- "

David Suzuki, aka Dr. Fruit Fly, is NOT a climatologist. He knows little to zilch of climatology, geomorphology, glaciology or anything else that matters wrt climate change.

But he is the de facto expert mouthpiece for The Believers ?

Go figure

25/4/07 3:14 PM  
Blogger Kyle Bailey:

Suzuki himself admits he isn't a great scientist.

Some things came up, and I haven't found the IPCC public statement of the review process yet.

By the way, since someone mentioned climateaudit, people may want to check out realclimate for balance. I think they are probably the most authoritative sites on either side of the debate. Its interesting to see who contributes to them too- the realclimate site is a whole bunch of scientists (in traditional sciences, bu mostly specializing in CC), while the climateaudit brings in differeent kinds of scientists- but very little physical arguments.

Then again, i'm not sure how worth it this process is- I'm fully willing to have a debate about scientific uncertainty, but those who don't know basic radiative properties of atm CO2 are rather frustrating to deal with.

cheers,
Kyle

25/4/07 5:01 PM  
Anonymous Stephen:

To AC's point about what the heck would you be buying if you bought a carbon credit

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/48e334ce-f355-11db-9845-000b5df10621.html

As for uncertainty...there is lots and the best of what we know would be that it is natural....since there has been variability in the past, why would you assume that an increase in CO2 (a fact for sure) means that there is an increase in global temperature....

Until it is prove the facts would uindicate it is natura and the hypothesis you are trying to prove is that some % of the increase recently is due to CO2 increases, which it is generally agreed has increased at its current rate due to human activity.

Mind you warming th ocean will release the disolved Co2 in the water, not the plant life in the water but the water itself.

Kyle, maybe you can proivide some insight on whether CO2 heat trapping (also a known fact) is cumulative or whether it reaches a saturation point....I havent really seen that point clearly described by either side, which tells me noone is quite sure.

What I mean is that if you have x amount of C02 and it generates a .5 degree greenhouse effect, does 2x mean 1 degree (for example) and does that carry up to 10x or nx or is there a point where it doesnt matter how much C02 you add your temperature wont change.

26/4/07 12:23 PM  
Anonymous Larry:

This Earth Day, Professor Richard Lindzen, an atmospheric physicist and the Alfred P. Sloan Professor of Meteorology at MIT, wants you to calm down. The Earth, he says, is in good shape. "Forests are returning in Europe and the United States. Air quality has improved. Water quality has improved. We grow more food on less land. We've done a reasonably good job in much of the world in conquering hunger. And yet we're acting as though: "How can we stand any more of this?"

A leading critic on the theory of man-made global warming, Professor Lindzen has developed a reputation as America's anti-doom-and-gloom scientist. And he's not, he says, as lonely as you might think.

Q You don't dispute that the globe is warming?

A It has never been an issue of whether the Earth is warming -- because it's always warming or cooling. The issue is: What are the magnitudes involved? It's a big difference if it's warming a degree or two or 10, or if it's warming a few tenths of a degree.

Q And it's inconclusive how much it's warming?

A Sure it's inconclusive. It's a very hard thing to analyze because you have to average huge fluctuations over the whole Earth, and 70% of the Earth is oceans where you don't have weather stations. So you get different groups analyzing this. And they're pretty close. One group gets over the last century a warming of about .55 degrees centigrade. Another group says it's .75 degrees.

Q Is there any scenario in which global warming could be beneficial for the planet?

A Of course. Canada looks like it will benefit considerably if it were to happen. And it might very well happen -- but it won't be due to man.

Q You charge that the hysteria that's been created around global warming is an enormous financial scam. It's all about money? A Well, how shall I put it? It's not all about money, but boy, there's a lot of money floating in it. I mean, emissions trading is going to be a multi-trillion dollar market. Emissions alone would keep small countries in business.

Q Are you suggesting that scientists manipulate their findings to get in on the gravy train?

A You have to differentiate the interests of different groups. In the scientific community, your interest is for your field to be recognized so that it will have priority in government funding.

Q So you are not accusing your scientific colleagues of corruption?

A No, I'm accusing them of behaving the way scientists always behave. In other words, some years ago, when Richard Nixon declared war on cancer, almost all the biological sciences then became cancer research. I mean, I don't call that corruption, I'm saying you orient your research so that it has a better chance to get resources.

Q And it helps if your findings suggest something catastrophic is about to happen?

A In this case it certainly has helped. First of all, the funding increased so greatly that it exceeded the capacity of the existing field to absorb it. You'll notice that Working Group 2 of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change came up with lots of scary things, but everything was always preceded by could, might, may, all these qualifiers. And the reason it was is those studies start out assuming there's a lot of warming. They assume all the science is in, and then they say, 'Well, how will this impact my field of insect-borne diseases, or agriculture, or health?' So they are almost, by definition, going to generate catastrophic scenarios, but they will never be based on anything other than the hypothesis that this will already happen.

Q I read that you bet one of your colleagues that the Earth will actually be colder 20 years from now?

A I haven't bet on it, but I figure the odds are about 50-50. If you look at the temperature record for the globe over the last six years, it's gone no place. That's usually the way it behaves before it goes down. In fact, I suspect that's why you have this tsunami of exposure the last two years, with Gore's movie and so on. I think that this issue has been around long enough to generate a lot of agendas, and looking at the temperature records there must be a fear that if they don't get the agendas covered now, they may never get them.

Q Did you watch Al Gore ge this Academy Award?

A No! Bad enough I watched his movie.

Q He would appear to have the support of the majority of your scientific colleagues.

A Not really. This is an issue that has hundreds of aspects. The very thought that a large number of scientists all agree on everything is inconceivable. Among my colleagues, I would say, almost no one thinks that Gore's movie is reasonable. But there will be differences. Some believe it is possible that warming could be a serious problem. Others think it's very unlikely. People are all over the place.

Q Some suggest that Roger Revelle, Gore's scientific mentor, would not have agreed with the movie?

A Well, he's dead.

Q Yes. So that makes it harder for him to speak out.

A It's a horrible story. Before he died, Roger Revelle co-authored a popular paper saying, 'We know too little to take any action based on global warming. If we take any action it should be an action that we can justify completely without global warming.' And Gore's staffers tried to have his name posthumously removed from that paper claiming he had been senile. And one of the other authors took it to court and won. It's funny how little coverage that got.

Q How cynical do you think Gore is?

A It's hard for me to tell. I think he's either cynical or crazy. But he has certainly cashed in on something. And 'cash in' is the word. The movie has cleared $50-million. He charges $100,000-$150,000 a lecture. He's co-founder of Global Investment Management, which invests in solar and wind and so on. So he is literally shilling for his own companies. And he's on the on the board of Lehman Brothers who want to be the primary brokerage for emission permits.

Q That sounds more cynical, less crazy.

A I think his aim is not to be president. It's to be a billionaire.

Q What do you find to be the attitude among your MIT undergraduates on global warming?

A I find that they realize they don't know enough to reach judgments. They all realize that Gore's book was a sham. They appreciate that Michael Crichton at least included references.

Q That's encouraging. Because I find the indoctrination at schools to be pretty relentless. On a recent Grade 7 test my daughter was asked something to the effect of, "How are you going to educate your parents about global warming?"

A I know. It's straight out of Hitlerjugend.

Q Having said that, are there any behaviours we should be changing, as a society, in order to protect our planet?

A Yes. We should learn math and physics so we don't get fooled by this idiocy.

26/4/07 12:28 PM  
Anonymous Larry:

Ahem
Filed under: Throw The Flag — Gaius at 8:43 pm on Tuesday, April 24, 2007

Fascist America in 10 easy steps . That is the title of a breathless story (or fairy tale) in the Guardian written by Naomi Wolf. Oh, do take the time to read it, what follows will make much more sense if you wade about in the fever swamp for a moment. But Naomi did present a little blueprint that fits something else that is going on in the world. Therefore, we here in the Crabitat have decided to reinterpret the list Ms. Wolf so graciously projected:

1. Invoke a terrifying internal and external enemy

Global warming! Global warming! We're all going to die.

2. Create a gulag

Demand the ouster of people who do not accept the "consensus" about global warming from their jobs. (Prison to follow.)

3. Develop a thug caste

Send in the screeching hordes to shout down anyone who disagrees with global warming "consensus."

4. Set up an internal surveillance system

Set up "global warming deniers database ." (If we weren't before, we expect to be on it shortly).

5. Harass citizens' groups

See 3.

6. Engage in arbitrary detention and release

So far, only refusing to allow publication of opinions that disagree with "consensus" in scientific journals and threatening letters from US Senators - give it time.

7. Target key individuals

Expect to be reviled and accused of being a tool of the oil companies if you dare to speak out against the "consensus."

8. Control the press

The New York Times. Case closed.

9. Dissent equals treason

See 4.

10. Suspend the rule of law

Give them a chance at power and the full set will be complete.

Amazing how that works, isn't it?

26/4/07 12:30 PM  
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