April 18, 2007

The Post is wrong on PR

What is it about proportional representation that turns otherwise sensible individuals into raving loonies? The debate on electoral reform has not even begun in Ontario -- the province’s Citizens’ Assembly has yet to formally report, though it is now known that it will recommend a mild form of PR for the voters’ consideration in next October’s referendum -- and already the Post has pronounced itself opposed. “PR is a bad idea,” yesterday’s lead editorial announced. And why is it a bad idea? Because … this is exactly how Hitler started....

Well, that's only the most extraordinary flourish in a piece that careens from one train wreck to another of muddled thinking and clichéd wisdom. Unable to decide whether PR would lead to fragmentation and division or consensus-driven conformity, the editorial opts for both. The problem with PR, it reported, is that small parties “breed like rabbits.” Politics becomes a matter of “jostling and shifting” among “special interest parties” with “their own parochial agendas,” such that “governing along any steady course becomes difficult.”

That is, unless it leads to too much steadiness. The problem with PR, the same editorial reports, is that it leads to “government gridlock” in which “a real change of government becomes unlikely.” Rather, it is dominated by “the same group of consensus politicians.” (The ones with the parochial agendas?) But hold that thought, because “too much consensus is not the only peril.” There’s also the peril of too little consensus. “A really destructive faction can manipulate PR disastrously, as the Nazis did in Weimar Germany.”

The editorial acknowledges this is “a peculiarly horrific example,” but it seems to think Israel and Italy are representative examples: the two countries with, historically, the most extreme forms of PR on Earth (Italy’s has since changed). You’d never know that PR is also in use in dozens of other countries, including Germany, the Netherlands, New Zealand, Australia, Ireland, and the Scandinavian countries: comparatively stable, well-governed places, most would agree.

All this angst, over a proposal that amounts to a fairly minor patch on the present system. Under the Citizens’ Assembly model, Ontarians would elect 90 members to their provincial parliament by exactly the same method as they do now. Another 39 members -- just 30% of the total -- would be elected by PR, topping up the distribution of seats thrown off by the “first past the post” system so as to produce something a little more in line with what Ontarians actually voted for.

But then, to devotees of FPTP, that’s a failing. Put another way, the strengths they associate with the present system, notably its tendency toward majority governments, are only achieved by misrepresenting voters’ true preferences: It delivers, not what the voters want, but what its proponents prefer they should have. Or as the Post puts it, “our system permits majority governments to emerge even from closely contested elections,” that is, from elections in which no party has the support of a majority of the voters, but only a plurality -- sometimes not even that.

The Post laments that, under PR, “Margaret Thatcher could never have become prime minister.” I might agree that would be an unfortunate result: others might view it as a plus. In the same way, I might point out that under PR, the Parti Québécois could never have won a majority or held a referendum. We can all point to results we might like or dislike under either system, but a democracy, surely, is concerned with what the voters like.

The distortions of first-past-the-post are too well known to require much recounting here: worse even than the phoney overall majorities are the phoney regional majorities (the Post, bizarrely, cites the Bloc Québécois as an example of the dangers of PR, when it is the present system that has rewarded it with 60% of the seats from Quebec with 40% of the vote), to say nothing of the discrimination against new parties: the Green Party, with more than 660,000 votes in the last federal election, got zero seats. The Bloc, with barely twice as many votes, got 51 seats.

But perhaps its worst effect is to produce the very instability its proponents fear. In recent years, Ontario has veered wildly, from the Rae NDP to the Harris Tories and back to the McGuinty Liberals, on the basis of relatively minor swings in voter support. The instability we associate with minority governments is likewise entirely a product of the “winner-take-all” mentality the system engenders: parties are encouraged to pull the plug on a government the minute they gain a lead in the polls, in the belief that they can collect a majority. In a system where minority governments -- coalitions, in other words -- are the norm, the incentives are far different.

“Breed like rabbits”? Take a look at the German parliament, elected under a system with a much higher degree of proportionality than is proposed for Ontario. At present, there are six parties, of which two, the Christian Democratic Union and the Christian Social Union, function effectively as one. For much of its post-war history, it has had three, or one fewer than our own Parliament. Those are some awfully sleepy rabbits.

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35 Comments

Stephen:

WHat is the goal of any elctoral system. Ultimately it is to confer legitimacy on those exercising the coercive power that government is.

To what ends that power is used depends on who sits in power. The key piece is that they be seen as legitimate so that "the people" are accepting of the results of the process. Nothing more damaging to a society than there be strife driven by debates over legitimacy.

We see it on election night when leaders of opposing parties concede defeat and follow the process that is put out there. The key thing is the agreement that the process, whatever it is has yielded a legitimate government that has the authority to act as a government and exercise power.

You see that disappear on majority governments a couple years into their mandate if they become too radical. The process slows down ad debates errupt along with protests, so FPTP doesnt mean a goivernment practically flips the bird to the electorate for 4 years.

Long comment to say the what is the goal of PR? Do we have a crisis of legitimacy, not amongst the normal crowd of outs and radicals but amongst the general population?

Because if the goal is that it isnt representative then NO system is completely representatitve. Elections by their nature are snapshots in time whether they are PR or not the electorate has a different configuration to it 1 day later.

Usually the counter there is well, you cant have elections everyday then that is my point. Any system invoves the tradeoffs and it s really the one that the broadest majority agree on that convey s legitimacy...

Electoral reform is like heart surgery, not something you want to do unless required. AC, your pointis that the current system is failing, failing in participation? failing in outcomes/policy? failing in legitimacy? I think the case of failure needs to be better stated.

Personally, I like FPTP for MP's, I do not like different clases of MP's although apparently it works in other jurisdctions, I am open to convincing but I am sure there are problems.

Germany, probably the best example of this..has a limited number of parties ELECTED...there are a large number of parties on the ballot. They have a relatively high threshold to get assigned anything, 10% I believe. This is a requirement if we ever go to some type of PR system.

Bottom line, I dont see the need to waste the legisaltures or the peoples time with this. I think there are more important things for the government and the oppsoition to be thining about and debating.

I dont see the fire

18/4/07 10:21 AM  
Anonymous:

I can see why a Green or NDP voter would like PR. I can't see why a libertarian or conservative would.

If democracy only works until people realize they can vote themselves other people's money (to paraphrase Alexis DeTocqueville) then unless we restrict voting to people who are NET tax payers, we'll get more votes for other people's (read MY) money.

Given how many people in Canada feel entitled to what they didn't earn (and whole regional economies are based on this theft,) I'd rather move than live under PR.

18/4/07 10:23 AM  
Barcs:

I wouldn't mind seeing a bit of a hybrid system of PR and FPTP on the order of how Mexico does it. Electing most on the FPTP system and adding a few MP's from a party election list based on the proportion of popular vote. (Am not sure how to include independants in such a PR system because they are unelikely to win a large enough share of the vote outside of the FPTP system)

But I am not in favor of the closed list system at all. (party chooses the order people are elected to pariliament). And to further that not even under the current system of nominations.

Why am I stuck voting for a pinhead in order to support the party of my choice (or vice versa: a good candidate but a party of pinheads)

I would like to see each party put forth 3 candidates nominatated in each riding. You vote for the party of your choice and rank the candidates in a preferential ballot.

It would encourage MP's to do a good (better) job of representing you because they could lose their seat even as the party wins in a landslide.


I can agree with the above comment by anonymous about "the peoples money" But I would argue that that already happens. Many people vote based on the best deal they can get from the government for their priorities. IE. childcare: spaces or money, free healthcare: more important to those who use it. ---> Its not about good governance its about me me me me... Otherwise we could just do an internet vote on each issue.

18/4/07 10:49 AM  
Ian H.:

After reading up on STV following the BC debate on exactly the same issue, it seems to be the best candidate in that it will give the best representation of the public's electoral wishes without the cronyism of a closed-list full-on PR system. It's unfortunate that Ontario's citizen council deems it too complex, but maybe what we need is a smaller province to take it on to show the big boys how it's done.

18/4/07 11:40 AM  
google:

A few points:

1) For electoral reform afficionados like AC, I would suggest advocating a double-referendum on electoral reform. That is, the enacting legistlation guarantees that a second referendum some years later, regarding a return to the original system.

This is to avoid the New Zealand syndrome, where they reformed themselves into a form with no ability to undo the now-unpopular change.

This can then be coupled with a lower referendum threshhold (i.e. a simple majority, no 60% crap) for any electoral reform .

2) I studied electoral systems in university, and was always surprised that there wasn't more focus in academia on the idea that certain systems might fit particular geographies and distributions better than others.

This lack of focus leads to little academic recognition that geographical size and population density distribution of a particular polity should inform the particular debate.

Canada and Ontario are both incredibly large geographically, dwarfing all European nations outside of Russia. This makes the arguments for FPTP here somewhat stronger than in most places, especially against the more 'purely' PR systems.

However, our geography also offers some wonderful opportunities to 'top up' using our geography rather than all-polity party lists. For instance, using regional seats for topping up MMP can be quite attactive, even to FPTP advocates.

3) I plan to vote against the proposed system in Ontario.

A) No escape clause to avoid NZ syndrome. Ontario is still quite a conservative place in some ways, and I doubt that any reform can (or should) succeed without such a clause.

B) I'm not a huge fan of electoral reform for the sake of 'fairness to parties', which seems to be the main purpose mentioned in all public discourse. To me, parties are mostly a necessary evil, even when I recognize their benefits. They too distort the will of voters through both internal and external actions, often more than the electoral system itself. Thus, although there are several arguments against FPTP, enhancing fairness to parties ranks a lot lower than most others.

C) The Citizen's Assembly should never, NEVER, chosen closed lists. Back at the beginning of the process, the first principle they agreed upon was fairness to parties. It showed that too many of them were quite naive, which is the root cause of their choice in favour of closed lists.

Closed lists should kill the deal for everyone. I almost feel bad for FPTP haters, because the closed lists proposal may prove so toxic that it excludes the possibility of any further examination of electoral reform in Ontario.

Aside: 60% sets a bad precedent for electoral reform in Ontario, BC, etc. However, it sets an excellent precedent for secession. How could a province secede with a lower threshhold than that required for electoral reform? Sucession is electoral reform on steroids.

For this reason, I thought Charest's municipal de-merger threshhold was a gift to Canada. A lower threshhold would have been politically expedient, but the higher threshhold was a fabulous stake driven through the hearts of the Pequistes. An important sequel to the Clarity Act. Plus, it wasn't quite high enough to completely block some de-mergers, so it weakens the argument in Quebec about such threshholds making change impossible.

18/4/07 1:05 PM  
Ken:

I think a problem with this system is that I cannot vote for the PC's in the party list vote because they probably will have close to the number of seats as their popular vote. Votes for major parties are essentially meaningless, and at the very least are worth less.

The PC's and Liberals would be smart to not create a list of 39 candidates, but to unofficially create the PC2 and Liberal2 Parties that don't run in ridings but only provide a list of 39. That way a vote for them in the party list counts as much as a vote for the Green's.

I would vote for this MMP system if the party vote section was completely separate from the riding vote section.

18/4/07 2:08 PM  
Andrew Frank:

Good work AC!

I read the Post's editorial against PR yesterday and was shocked by it's lack of a logical argument and it's shamefully misleading characterization of British Columbia's recent referendum on Proportional Representation.

This was the most offending line and the one that caused me to literally shake my head in disbelief: "Mercifully, British Columbians were only lukewarm to a form of PR in their 2005 election..."

WOW. So let me understand what the Post editorial was saying: 57.69% in favor of PR (the final result in BC's referendum), with a supporting majority in 77 of the province's 79 electoral districts is a "lukewarm" response?

The only reason PR didn't pass in British Columbia was because of the completey non-democratic threshold of 60% support required for reform as established by the provincial government.

How many of our politicians today (and their associated governing decisions) are elected and carried out based on the blessing of 60% of voters?

The Post owed its readers a more accurate portrayal of the results of the 2005 BC referendum on proportional representation.

As a British Columbian I look forward to a positive result in BC's next referendum on proportional representation, coinciding with the next provincial election (one the government had to offer again given that the BC public clearly supported a change in 2005).

Thank you for holding the Post accountable on this one. I hope you will remain vigilant leading up to the referendum in October.

18/4/07 2:36 PM  
FDuquette:

"Amazing Grace", a movie about the abolitionist movement in England in the early nineteenth century, perhaps demonstrates that it is not so much the method of constituting parliament that produces change, but rather, the issues that are courageously put before it.
Staged primarily in the British Parliament, the film dramtically features legislative change guided by the perserverence and moral certainty of MP WIlliam Wilburforce, for whom slavery was an offence to God. His gift of oratory was not lost in securing the comforts of power or auctioned to the vested interest, but rather to a cause that entailed 30 years of his political life and his health.
The film featres MP's guided less by party loyalty and "whips", seemingly able to cross party lines on issues for their own reasons, good or bad.
It is in individuals to whom we trust the reigns of government that such parliamentary traditions ultimately derive, and in case of Wilburforce, it was his faith in Christ and his friendships with those who battled with him that sustained the effort to rid the dominion of its complicity in evil.

18/4/07 3:15 PM  
Anonymous:

To Google:

If the public ends up supporting MMP with over 60% of the vote and with 60% of the ridings getting a majority. I would happily agree to have another referendum--AFTER another citizens' assembly has recommended a model for changing the voting system. Should this new assembly vote to return Ontario to first-past-the-post, Ontarians could vote for this with another 60% majority and with majorities in 60% of the MMP ridings. It's only fair!

Robert B

18/4/07 4:38 PM  
Marco:

PR is dumb.

1. It addresses a non-problem: we're not putting "party members" in that reflect the percentage of the electorate? So what? I don't vote for a party. I vote for an individual in my riding.

2. Other people vote based on a party leader - but have no idea what the party is for. Why the heck would we want to put party hacks in the legislature just because somebody identifies with the leader?

3. Let's just say - counterfactually, in my view, but what the heck - that most people vote on the basis of party. Does that mean we don't need ridings at all? Then why the hell do we need a riding-by-riding legislature? Why not just elect - for example - a nine-member corporate board, based on party? (This would mean that different wings within an individual party wouldn't have to trade with each other to get policies through, but that would be more "efficient," wouldn't it?)

Why do we need PR, anyway? Is everybody too stupid to do the electoral calculus in the current system and allocate his or her vote optimally?

18/4/07 4:55 PM  
Alex Sloat:

AC, the editorial is right on both points. You get a solid base of mushy middle consesnus politicians that no force on earth can displace, but they don't have enough support to govern, and so they're forced to make deals with radical single-issue parties to get the parliamentary majority that they need. You get the same faces running a different coalition with radically different policies. Now, that's only egregiously true of pure PR, which fortunately Ontario isn't even coming anywhere near, but MMP is closer to that "ideal" than we really want to be.

Also, the problem they identified re the Bloc wasn't the Bloc itself(which obviously does exist under FPTP), but the existance of more Bloc-like parties. The Bloc works because it's a narrow-focus regional party, but an equally narrow-focus national party(the Greens, the Marijuana Party, etc.) could do just as well under PR. And frankly, that's a failing of the system - we're supposed to be electing a government, not a bunch of radicals and loons(and I'm saying this as someone who will probbaly never get elected due to excessive radicalism). Big-tent politics is a good thing, no matter how irritating it is sometimes, because it means that anyone who wins a government is generally capable of governing in a mostly-sensible manner. FPTP has virtues as well as vices, and I really wish more PR advocates would acknowledge that fact.

18/4/07 9:47 PM  
r a:

Anonymous' point about the problem of the less productive part of the electorate being tempted to increase their standard of living by voting themselves public funds is well made. Unfortunately, this is further entrenched in our politics by a distibution of seats in favour of economically less productive rural areas at the expense of more productive urban ones.

With regard to AC and the other advocates of PR, I fail to see why they believe that the under-representation of the Greens vis-a-vis the Bloc is an issue requiring urgent attention, whereas the under-representation of Toronto vs the rest of Ontario (which PR won't address) doesn't matter.

19/4/07 12:51 AM  
Werner Patels:

FPTP is the most undemocratic way of electing MPs. Therefore, Canada has never experienced real democracy. Only once PR is in place will Canadians finally know true democracy.

19/4/07 1:18 AM  
Anonymous:

The Greens can be taken seriously the day they elect not just one federal MP but 12 MPs and get official party status.

It might help if they had some success in a province or two as well.

If there is an elected Green provincial MLA (MPP, MNA)) anywhere in this country, I'm just not aware of them.

Small parties can promise the moon, and never have to deliver a damn thing.

19/4/07 1:29 AM  
JR:

Andrew opened his response to the Post editorial with a good question.

So, one has to ask, what is it about PR that makes Andrew Coyne such a raving fanatic in favour of changing an electoral system that’s served us so well for well over a century?

More here on why I think PR is a bad idea.

19/4/07 3:13 AM  
derrida:

"electoral system that’s served us so well for well over a century?"

Why don't you Tories at least be honest and admit that the reason you're against proportional representation is that it undermines the unfair advantage the Conservatives have garnered from finding strong concentrations of like-minded morons. Thus in the 2004 Federal election. In the prairie provinces only twice as many votes were cast for Conservatives, but this wildly resulted in 7 times greater representation in the HofC. The Liberals also benefit greatly from unthinking concentration of voters. It's true, I'm softer on Liberals- they're not all morons. In the same election a half-million votes were cast nationally for the Greens resulting in zero representation while in the Atlantic provinces fewer than that number of votes resulted in 22 seats in parliament. From the point of view of democracy there's little to debate. The choice is obvious. Check FAIR VOTE CANADA (fairvotecanada.org).

19/4/07 8:38 AM  
Werner Patels:

JR, where have you been? Under a rock?

FPTP has not served us and our democracy at all. In fact, we don't have democracy in this country -- and never did.

But we'll have democracy once PR is brought in.

19/4/07 11:07 AM  
Jawn:

Well said AC.

Out here BC we came within a hair's breadth of getting the STV system: the remarkably high threshhold was 60% across BC and in each riding. We got something like 57% across the province and 60%+ in all but 3 or so ridings. And that was with both the NDP and Liberals ignoring the issue in the LA campaign. Had a discussion of the system and how it operates taken place, most suspect STV would have won.

Either system (STV or PR) would be a improvement. I prefer STV à la Irlande: all MLAs retain ostensive responsibility to a riding and its populace, whereas the "adjustment" MLAs would only be directly culpable to their parties.

19/4/07 11:23 AM  
Bozo:

PR sounds like something that Monty Python would have dreamt up. It replaces one set of inequities under FPTP with a different set. Under PR we would have ended up with about 14 Green MP’s after the last election and they would have been inflicted on poor folks who voted 95.6% AGAINST THEM.

If PR ever becomes the law of the land here I will create the Clown Party of Canada whose candidates will all be stand up comedians who will tell jokes and throw pies at the other parties. So instead of electing an MP who ends up boning their constituents, you can elect an MP who bones their constituents and tell them jokes while they are doing it, and throw pies at the other parties.

19/4/07 12:16 PM  
Paul:

We have representative democracy in Canada -that is the point. (Not "direct" democracy.)

The pure form of PR is internet polling, true direct democracy that would be a total disaster, not to mention the total tyranny of the poorly-informed majority. (Just imagine Wikipedia for Legislation)

The goal is to elect a representative that can weigh all the pros and cons of issues, while the rest of us can get on with our lives.

I agree with people who say there isn't much of a problem to solve here. I say this never having successfully voted for a winning MP, but I am able to accept that if my opinion isn't shared by enough voters in my riding, then too bad for me!

I can accept that I am in the minority, and if I cared more, it would be my job to bring more people around to my way of thinking --not cry that my vote must always be represented. Even if I didn't vote for the MP, they still have to represent the whole riding --which isn't the case for Parties.

19/4/07 12:47 PM  
Anonymous:

US President Tim Kalemkarian, US Senate Tim Kalemkarian, US House Tim Kalemkarian: best major candidate.

19/4/07 1:41 PM  
derrida:

Bozo,
I welcome your party and if you could meet the minimum threshold requirements to be represented in parliament, I would welcome you clowns- especially given that it sounds like your main support would come from the more daft wing of the Conservatives. It's a win win, laughs and less Conservative representation.

19/4/07 2:52 PM  
Steve L.:

i must say i'm unimaginably surprised that Andrew seems to be trying to one-up me. yeah. really surprised.

19/4/07 5:01 PM  
JR:

Andrew,

There you go! Case closed! If someone with nom-de-blog "Derrida" is in favour of PR you just know there's got to be something horribly wrong with it.

19/4/07 11:53 PM  
Alex Sloat:

Derrida: I'm a Tory partisan, but I can tell you right now that my support for FPTP has nothing whatsoever to do with my politics. I'm a libertarian, but my local candidates have almost invariably been red tories(Stronach and Witmer, to name the notables). The Tories are a very artificial party, with a coalition of at least four or five different groups being helfd together, and made to work together, by the need for broad-based compromise inherent in FPTP. You've got reds, socons, libertarians, populists, and neocons, just to name the biggest group, and with the exception of the odd overlap the groups don't much like each other.

If we were to go to pure PR(which I know isn't on the table, but still), the provincial party would probbaly become two or three, and the federal would be more likely 4-5 separate parties. The NDP, that clamours for it so strongly, would fracture just as badly(an alliance of auto workers and environmentalists isn't exactly built for stability), and even the Liberals would probably split in two. The politics of it would be absolutely lovely for someone like me, because I'd be freer to vote for my ideology instead of having to compromise to build a functioning party like I do now. I just happen to honestly believe it's a bad thing for our system of government.

20/4/07 1:14 AM  
derrida:

Alex,
I agree with your assessment of pure PR. I would even add that I wouldn't want to lose the regional representation and the direct connection that to my representative (whether s/he shares my ideology or not) afforded by the FPTP system. While I don't claim the mixed member proportionality tabled the the CA of Ontario is perfect, I do think it's worth seriously considering as an improvement on what we have now. I think Fair Vote Canada makes a compelling case for the strange and unfair results produced by the FPTP system.
As a Libertarian wouldn't you feel better represented in parliament by a mix of Conservatives and Greens (possibly even the freedom party or the Libertarian party) than by Conservatives alone?
I don't think the fragmentation you've described would happen under the proposed mixed member PR system. And I'm not sure it makes much sense to be against the proposed electoral reform because in it's pure and unintended form it might have undesirable consequences. But worth looking into extant such systems such as Germany's, to see if it's led to splintering of the dominant parties. Or is your concern more around coalition governance?

20/4/07 2:27 AM  
Anonymous:

derrida,

After reviewing your posts, I think the only moron here is you.

But carry on, moron. You're at least amusing.

20/4/07 9:50 PM  
joe:

The best solution is not PR. Unellected people going to parliment picked by unellected people (party hacks) is open to abuse. The best solution is to take the executive branch out of the legislative branch. Direct election of the Executive and first past the post for the legislative meets the requirements best.

20/4/07 11:00 PM  
Alex Sloat:

The reason why I bring up pure PR is that the line between FPTP and PR is basically a continuum, with MMP falling somewhere in between. Of course, the post-MMP Ontario Legislature will never look like the Knesset with 20 or 30 parties, but I wouldn't be surprised to have 4 or 5 at some point down the road. Parties have split up before, even under FPTP(look at the three-way explosion of the federal PCs under Mulroney), but it'll happen more often, and for longer, under MMP.

Frankly, in Ontario, it's not going to change all that much. We'll get more minorities, and the NDP will be better represented. Both of these are bad things IMO, but neither is exactly earthshaking. Federally, I think MMP would make the "pizza parliament" days of 1997-2004 look tame by comparison, because both regional parties like the Bloc and broad-based fringe parties like the Greens will have noteworthy bases of support, along with all the traditional parties, and all the parties that would spawn out of the unlikely coalitions breaking up again(I don't think the PC/CA merger would have been as likely under MMP, for example).

Basically, the problem with MMP, or any other PR-based system, is that encourages fractures and instability. That's simply not a good way of running a government. It would be closer to fesable if we were to abandon the Parliamentary system and go for fixed-duration houses like the US has, so that collapses of government would matter less and coalitions could form issue-by-issue without the threat of toppling the government, but even that isn't really all that great. Frankly, as I said before, I think FPTP is just a better way of running the system. There's a few other systems I wouldn't mind - my only objections to STV are complexity-based(and are far from insurmountable), and there's a few wacky ones that I think could work very well, but anything based on PR is just not the right way of doing anything.

21/4/07 1:00 AM  
janfromthebruce:

Alex sloat brings up an interesting point:Basically, the problem with MMP, or any other PR-based system, is that encourages fractures and instability.
Are you implying that only FPTP electoral system is stable? Canada, and its provinces and territories, is one of only FOUR MAJOR COUNTRIES in the world using this system. Are you implying that other European countries do not have stable governments?

Anon posters suggest that we "restrict voting to people who are NET tax payers."
That pretty much means everybody in Canada can vote. So what would that look like: only those at the end of the tax year who have to pay additional tax to the govt? That might leave a host of people who don't pay anything at the end of year through using tax shelters and so on.
Of couse, I don't think you meant that. Everybody in Canada pays tax in some form. GST comes to mind here. Or are you talking about taxation based on earned income only. Reminds of the good old days where only 'property owners' had the right to vote.

21/4/07 8:48 AM  
Alex Sloat:

Their governmental structures are less stable. Remember also that the countries that use FPTP are among the biggest and most regionalized of the industrialized nations(Canada and the US especially), which means that we've got more problems with divided governments that way - the Reform and Bloc Quebecois movements are perfect examples of this. Thus, even if we have a less divisive system, we're going to be as divided as a small, homogenous European nation with MMP. We don't need to be making it worse by changing our system of government to a more unstable one.

As for the proposal to restrict it to net taxpayers, what he means is people who pay more taxes than they receive back from the government. Thus, government employees, welfare recipients, especially poor people, and a few other groups of people would basically be disenfranchised. The idea is similar to the "only property owners may vote" system we used to have, or the Starship Troopers model whereby you have to perform public service(generally military) before you can vote, or half a dozen others - basically, you limit the franchise to people who have a real stake in society and who contribute to it. I don't think any of those models are especially good ones, for various reasons(most notably, a universal franchise is far less abusable), but they're all based on reasonably sound principles at the theoretical level.

21/4/07 10:37 AM  
Anonymous:

I have always rejected the theory behind PR, that is that if 67% of the people in my neighbourhood want a playground in the vacant lot, and 33% want a ten storey condominuim building, the only democratic answer is to build a 3.3 storey condo building on a park. Wrong. Democracy says we get the park.

Those 33% who wanted the condo building didn't see their votes wasted, they voted for something and lost. The decision gets made and you move on. I don't see what's so undemocratic about that.

Secondly, this whole debate has as its premise, the notion that FPTP and PR systems are the opposite of each other. PR is a way of distributing representation. FPTP is a way of choosing representatives. Solving a perceived probelm with the counting of votes by changing the distribution of representation is like replacing the doors of yor house because you don;t like the windows.

If FPTP is so bad, why not do what many countries do and simply have run offs amongst the final two candidates in each riding? That way, people who vote for smaller parties won't have "wasted" their vote as they get a second chance to choose what may end up being their least worst option.

Giving the Communist Party, the Rhino Party, The Natural Law Party and the Marijuana Party seats in the House of Commons based on their ability to get 0.3% of the popular vote does not in any way make Canada more democratic or its legsilatures more reflective of the political priorities of voters.

The run off puts political brokerage in the hands of the voters, rather than in the hands of a small number of fringe MPs are directly accountable to no one.

21/4/07 5:42 PM  
hosertohoosier:

The question I really have is what we vote for, or should vote for. To me, voting is about two things: selecting a platform for governance of the country, and accountability (rewarding success, punishing failure).

On both counts, PR is rather bad. I can't vote on the issues, because the actual platforms of the parties are largely determined through a deal-making process that I cannot influence.

Secondly, it is difficult to reward success/punish failure when you are dealing with coalitions. Do you punish the leading partner in the coalition? Or pass off failures as a result of the constraints of minority government?

With PR you get the party that you want, but not the platform that you want. But isn't the platform the main reason you vote for a party?

23/4/07 11:27 AM  
derrida:

Anonymous,
First to the one who spoke so eloquently and dribbled out of his mouth that I'm the only moron here. Thanks for coming out, big boy.
To most recent anonymous,
I'm assuming you're not the same anon. Your view of democracy as purely majoritarianism is very ill-informed, or at least dangerous. There is democratic progress in majoritarianism, but there are also serious limitations that need vigilantly to be corrected. Unless you're against things like civil rights, minority rights and judicial review and such. J.S. Mill had a phrase for the inherent dangers of majoritarianism: "the tyranny of the majority". There is an inherent resistance in the majority to think self-critically and to embrace change- not to mention to bully and ignore the minority. It's interesting that it's for the protection and promotion of minorities that freedom of expression should be safeguarded, not to mention why we should strive for a truly representative government. This in my view is why the wacky results often created by the FPTP system need to be rectified.
Yet, fear mongering gun toting, military loving, big business ass kissing Conservative Neanderthals ironically love to seize on freedom of expression to excuse the drivel that drools out their mouths. I’m making no assumptions about your political affiliations, I’m simply pointing out that much of the Anti-Semitic, white supremacist, Conservative discourse of hatred usually hides behind this provision.
However, speaking of fear mongering, your characterization of PR as ushering in seats for the lunatic fringe, is just that. The electoral reform being espoused in Ontario sets the threshold at 3%, not .3%. In many systems it’s higher, but still with a threshold of ten times higher than you state, you can take a deep breath: it’s highly unlikely we’ll see the Freedom Party, the Rhinocerous Party, the Clown Party, or the Green Party (after their leader sold the party down the river) in the House of Commons anytime soon.
Still, Alex Sloat and hosertohoosier have some interesting comments on PR reform.

23/4/07 1:54 PM  
Anonymous:

I'm with you Andrew. No system is perfect but have seen MMP in action in NZ and I liked what I saw. Yes to PR.

13/5/07 1:31 AM