May 2, 2007

Stop, you're killing me

The position of the government of Canada is very clear. We have always opposed torture of any kind. We don’t like to hear of anyone being tortured. And this government is willing to take the difficult steps needed to make sure that we never do...

That is why, whenever we hand over any Taliban prisoners our forces have captured to the Afghanistan, what I’ll call “authorities,” we rely on the Red Cross to keep us informed of any and all abuses, so far as their policy of not providing such information allows. 

That is to say, we rely on the good offices of the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission, and very good offices they are, too, if you don’t mind doing without a phone, or electricity, or access to major prisons. It’s important to recognize, this is the agency responsible for human rights in Afghanistan. Need I say more? 

But let me be perfectly clear: we don’t need the Afghans to tell us what’s going on. We have just signed an agreement, allowing us visitation rights whenever we want on alternate Sundays. That is to say, we are in the process of negotiating such an agreement. That is to say, we already have an agreement. That is to say, we don’t need an agreement: we have all the access we could ever want. 

Not that we even need access, you understand. We have no evidence that any torture is going on in any jail in Afghanistan. That is to say, we are unaware of any reports to that effect, other than the one our own Foreign Affairs officials prepared for us, whose existence we officially deny. Oh, and one by Human Rights Watch. Also Amnesty International. And the UN Commissioner for Human Rights. And the US State Department.

A word on that Foreign Affairs report. The fact that certain highly incriminating passages, contradicting everything we had previously said on the matter, were blacked out in the copy that was eventually released, should not be taken as evidence that we were responsible, or even aware of what they contained. The minister of Foreign Affairs, in particular, has not been given security clearance.

But remember, these are allegations only. Allegations, let me repeat, not proof. We have a tradition in this country that you are innocent until proven guilty, and so are the good people at the Afghan secret police. Besides, who are you going to believe, us or a bunch of Taliban terrorists? Bear in mind, these people are trained to lie. They’re taught how to keep their story straight. They have no idea of how things are done here.

But, to be clear, these are serious allegations, and we take these allegations very seriously, as is our practice in any case of such alleged seriousness. No, seriously. We stand ready to assist the Afghan government in its investigation of itself, with whatever evidence it sees fit to provide us. We dismiss these allegations as terrorist lies only as a signal of our commitment to a thorough and impartial inquiry. 

Or if I may put the matter another way, what allegations? Let me quote the Government House Leader from this past Sunday: “We have yet to see one single specific allegation of torture.” That is to say, we have received two, from Corrections Canada officials assigned to the Afghan prison system. Or to quote the Government House leader again, “baseless accusations made by those who wish to undermine our forces there.”

That is the kind of vigilance this government has demonstrated throughout this affair. Sure, a newspaper reporter was able to collect 30 similar cases of alleged whipping, beating, and maiming in his spare time. But as soon as we heard about these, alerted by our highly-trained professional clipping service, we swung into action. No fewer than four different ministers have commented publicly on it -- five, if you count the Defence minister. Between them, they have provided at least a dozen different explanations. That’s one for every two and a half alleged victims of torture. And with any luck we should soon be able to locate the other half.

Clearly, it’s a messy, complicated situation over there. What would you have us do: sign agreements like the British and the Dutch, guaranteeing unimpeded access to all prisoners captured by our forces from the start? It can’t be done. You can't make an omelette without breaking a few legs.

For now, let’s let the investigation proceed, shall we? Even as we speak, Afghan government officials are interviewing other Afghan government officials about what they knew. If they won’t cooperate, well, let’s just say they have ways of making themselves talk.

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65 Comments

Érik Labelle Eastaugh:

Best. Column. Ever.

1/5/07 6:49 PM  
The Anonymous Green:

Robert McNamara: The Fog of War

Gordon O'Connor: The Fogey of War

1/5/07 7:03 PM  
Anonymous:

No Problem. No more prisoners. Call it part of the climate change plan. Taliban whackos exhale CO2, gotta curb those emissions.

1/5/07 7:09 PM  
Eugene Forsey Liberal:

Bravo!
Although I have a sneaking feeling some of your regular correspondents will react more along the lines of the current government and its Liberal predecessor, and say something along the lines of: "We have to permit torture of suspects in order to promote democracy & human rights", a variation on the "We have to destroy the village in order to save it" illogic.

1/5/07 7:49 PM  
Keith:

It must be dark times for some Tory partisans. Once this government showed they weren't really any different than the Liberals in economic management and adherence to free market principles, the rationalization of many folks was that at least the Tories were better managers. Now that that reed is looking pretty shaky, what is there left?

1/5/07 8:01 PM  
Sean Cummings:

I would argue that it wouldn't matter which party is in power, this kind of situation is so far removed from what Canada has long participated in, namely peacekeeping. Never mind that (according to La Presse) the Liberals under Paul Martin knew that prisoners were being tortured -- interesting how the english press in Canada hasn't really paid much attention to this fact.

What's really happening here (aside from bad management) is "good ol' peace luvin Canada" happens to be caught up in a real war with real casualties and real political fallout.

1/5/07 8:13 PM  
Steve L.:

i will just say that while i wouldn't necessarily be throwing a hissy fit if this were to happen under Liberal rule, this is a mistake on our part and we bear the most responsibility to clean it up. just don't come to us and complain that we're not empowering the Afghan government if we decide to keep prisoners in our hands for longer periods of time. but i suspect some people will anyway.

oh yeah and obviously off topic: hey Andrew there's a new Decima poll that put the Liberals ahead of the Conservatives! are you gonna name your next column "Spring election? The sooner the better"?

1/5/07 10:10 PM  
Luke:

You must feel dejected. If you criticise the Conservatives or praise the Liberals, you're biased against the CPC and always have been.

If you criticise the Liberals or praise the Tories, you're biased against the LPC and always have been.

I don't know whether to laugh at people's ridiculous assumptions, or cry since we are so used to obviously biased reporters that it's all we see now.

1/5/07 10:46 PM  
paul.obeda@:

Let's not forget about the Charter Rights of all the other prisoners being held in prisons all across Afghanistan. Why isn't the Canadian Government doing more to ensure all Afghan prisoners are treated as well as we treat our own murderers and homegrown terrorists? That all Afghan suspects are given the same luxuries afforded to our own?

After all, once the suspects are in an Afghan jail it gets really difficult for the authorities to torture one group while feeding the guy in the next cell gourmet meals and serving up their fave tv shows, just because there was a Canuck involved in the action undertaken under the auspices of the Afghan government to capture the latter suspect.

So surely Canada must ensure no Afghan prisoners are ever tortured, no matter who captured them. That sort of imposition in the operation of a sovereign state is the least we can do as the price for helping them out in a time of dire need.

Or maybe they'd all be so much better off if Canada sat back (as so many Canadians tell pollsters they want) and didn't help the Afghan government purge itself of the evil that lurks within its borders.

As it is, if, God forbid, the Taliban happened to capture a Canadian soldier we would certainly expect them to uphold the Geneva Convention. So help us we'd wag our finger at them if they didn't.

Even though the Taliban aren't the armed forces of any State, and do not follow the requirements to avail themselves of the harbours of the Geneva Convention.

God help us!

2/5/07 2:06 AM  
Glen:

This post has been removed by the author.

2/5/07 3:09 AM  
Glen:

Yeah, what Paul.Obeda said! I totally agree.

If they do it, we should do it. It's not like we have a reputation or anything to keep up...

2/5/07 3:10 AM  
Grithater:

Too true, Glen. We had a reputation, earned in our first three wars, as a country that made the enemy wish they had stayed in bed. That was before Trudeau came along, who hated what we were, and decided to remake the country in his image. One hundred years of magnificient history of enterprise and sacrifice, washed away and replaced with navel-gazing narcissism, rights without responsibilities and moral relativism. Now our troops know that there enemies are behind them, waiting for their moment to stab them in the back.

2/5/07 6:32 AM  
Anonymous:

Yes, the Nazi-loving Trudeau was possibly the WORST thing to happen to this country in its short history. Oddly, he is still loved by Coyne, who also has a weird man-crush on Dion (check out Coyne's gushing nonsense when he initially described Dion).

Oh the horrors of torture! Oh no, the men who were trying to kill us and who are not covered under the Geneva Convention are being tortured by their fellow citizens. Gasp! No one could have seen that one coming.

2/5/07 8:41 AM  
Joseph Lavoie:

Great column Andrew - one of your best yet.

2/5/07 8:58 AM  
Anonymous:

So, how's the fund raising going so far for the first three months of 2007 you ask?

CPC - 45,000 donors - $5,200,000

Libs - 4365 donors - $531,000

NDP - 15,000 donors - $1,200,000

2/5/07 9:12 AM  
Cerberus:

Satire at its best, directed at a government that deserves it most.

Canada's New-ish Government (TM) has become a joke.

2/5/07 9:26 AM  
Anonymous:

There is an additional side to the "taking the words of the Taliban" defence.

Most of the prisoners interviewed for the Globe story were released from prison. If they are indeed Taliban intent on killing Canadian soldiers, then why are they still not inside the Afghan prison system?

I guess the Fighting Fighty Buckleroos (TM) at Harper Central haven't figured out that logical disconnect yet.

2/5/07 9:35 AM  
bigcitylib:

Great column, and entirely metaphor-free.

2/5/07 10:18 AM  
knb:

Brilliantly done!

2/5/07 10:23 AM  
Calgary Junkie:

This looks like a no-brainer for Dion. All the stars are aligned for an election.

He's got the Afghan detainees and a Kyoto-deficient Green plan from Baird. He's ahead in the polls. And he can use Bill C30 to use as the hammer to bring Harper down.

What's Dion waiting for ? Even his campaign slogan writes itself --

Stand Up for the Taliban !

2/5/07 11:12 AM  
Anonymous:

Anyone else notice there are a lot of angry CONservatives around lately? Are they upset that their house of cards is collapsing?

hehehe, good times ahead, pass the beer and popcorn.

2/5/07 11:23 AM  
FDuquette:

The government seems to be confusing the mission in Afghanistan with Vimy Ridge; their attempts at censorship reveal that they labour under delusions about what our soldiers die for and cannot admit to cracks in the moral integrity of a mission that is, at best, a lessor of two evils, the Taliban or the current government.
Trouble has brewed before, for example in the Afghan apostasy laws, punishable by death. This law will remain as it is considered sunnah/sharia (it is not qu'ranic). Regardless, our government stated that "Canada will continue to encourage the Afghan government to adhere to its human rights obligations."

2/5/07 11:34 AM  
KRB:

When's Dion gonna call the election? One poll has him ahead I hear.

The fact is, even if he were 5 pts up, he wouldn't force an election, because he knows Harper would still win.

I seriously think that Harper should bring forward a bill asking if the House is onside with the regulations proposed in the Cons' new eco-package, and make it a confidence vote (which it clearly should be). Force the opposition to back down and admit that they're idiots, or get the Canadian people to render their judgment.

2/5/07 11:39 AM  
Anonymous:

Careful what you wish for Calgary Junkie, you just may get it. But I think the Libs will wait and give PMS just a little bit more rope.

2/5/07 11:43 AM  
islandconservative:

Well Andrew it looks like you have been hanging around with the CBC crowd to long, it is starting to rub off. I never thought i would see the day you would take the side of Citoyen Dion and the Adscam crowd. Mansbridge must be very proud of you!

Since you have time to comment on political grandstanding by the leftys, maybe you could help find the $40 mil of stolen taxpayers dollars that is still missing from Adscam.

2/5/07 11:47 AM  
KRB:

As for the detainee issue, they have handled it horribly. Truly amateur hour, and it is surprising, just as CP's Rob Russo said on the At Issue panel last week, seeing as how for the first 14.5 months this government has look assured and has stickhandled most files with a fair degree of (again, Russo's words) "aplomb".

But, as AC mentioned, we're working with a crappy agreement signed by Liberals too distracted apparently by the election campaign to see if it resembled anything like the agreements reached by our NATO allies.

There's nothing wrong with admitting past errors, and then going on to correct them. Harper's approach to all this, seemingly the ol' Chretien approach, is not the right way to go.

2/5/07 11:48 AM  
KRB:

Oh c'mon Anonymous, Dion wouldn't force an election, even if all the opposition was on board. He knows he'd be handed his ass.

Harper can still rest easy. That's not to say Harper's great, it's just that the alternatives are no better and horribly uninspiring.

2/5/07 11:51 AM  
Anonymous:

KRB

You are correct. How could anyone beat Harper? I heard he is political genius.

2/5/07 12:15 PM  
Calgary Junkie:

It seems obvious that the longer Dion dithers around C30, the more his enviromental credibility gets shredded. Don't take my word for it, here's what Chantal Hebert had to say a few days ago Will opposition force an election?

If Stéphane Dion, Jack Layton and Gilles Duceppe feel that the failure to move more decisively on climate change is grievous, if they are convinced that Harper is wrong when he argues that he cannot do more without doing irreparable harm to the economy, then they are free to move a non-confidence motion in the government at the first opportunity.

That places Dion in front of the starkest choice of his short tenure. The Liberal leader has staked his leadership on his environment credentials. ...

For months, the opposition has collectively wrapped itself in the various folds of the Kyoto protocol. Now the time has come to see whether the emperor had any clothes

2/5/07 1:24 PM  
Peter Loewen:

Just so everyone is clear, even if you buy the "lets allow the torture of Taliban but not others" argument, it's still true that Canada is turning over detainees who could face torture who are explicitly not members of the Taliban.

It's just astounding how slobbering some of the responses to this issue are. One can reasonably argue that the government can't be expected to manage the situation perfectly and that a solution takes some time. One can even say Martin's government was worse and more complicit. But to suggest that we have no alternative but to let this torture occur because these folks may or probably are Taliban is one the most singularly stupid things I have read in a long time. And if you make that argument only because it accords with your partisanship than you are not even stupid. You're a robot.

2/5/07 1:37 PM  
Érik Labelle Eastaugh:

I agree with Peter Loewen. It seems as though many of the people posting here have a strong knee-jerk impulse to defend the Tories no matter what they do, and that's partisanship at its worst.

The problem isn't that the torture of prisoners occured, per se. I'm sure that General Hillier could probably set out some reasonable grounds for why he concluded the agreement he did. It turns out that, in hindsight, it was a bad agreement, but I think that any reasonable and fair-minded person will have to admit that decision-making in wartime is very tough, even under ideal circumstances. Mistakes will be made as a matter of course. But when they happen, the correct response is to acknowledge that the decision was wrong and try to fix it. What AC's column decries is the total incoherence and incompetence of the government's HANDLING of the situation. The result has been total confusion, which makes it very hard for the public to evaluate the situation.

This isn't an ideological thing. It's a competence thing.

2/5/07 1:58 PM  
canuckistanian:

fantastic column AC, absolutely frickin hilarious!

i agree with peter loewen. funny how many conservative commenters here are talking about "adscam" and "citoyen dion" and the "CBC and peter mansbridge" (bloody pinkos!) and "Bill C30" and "fundraising numbers". funny because it shows exactly what peter loewen mentioned: you people are fucking robots!!! conservatives good, liberals evil: is the only thing that matters to these people. how pathologically strange! and they have the audacity to call "the left" "moral relativists"...coming from a bunch of moral nihilists beset by the most crass venality and fascist partisanship, it is a bit rich.

2/5/07 2:41 PM  
Derek Pearce:

"...What AC's column decries is the total incoherence and incompetence of the government's HANDLING of the situation. The result has been total confusion, which makes it very hard for the public to evaluate the situation.
This isn't an ideological thing. It's a competence thing."

Bang on. So when will O'Connor be shuffled out? He's a liability and he can't be long for a demotion...

2/5/07 2:50 PM  
Calgary Junkie:

Does anyone know the French equivalent to "beating a dead horse" ? If so, they should tell Dion.

For a story to have legs, like good old Adscam, there has to be new revelations on a regular basis. Otherwise, the public gets annoyed with hearing the same questions and answers repeated over and over.

A cynic might think that Dion is avoiding his signature file, the environment, for fear that the media will press him to actually DO something to challenge Baird's inaction on Kyoto.

2/5/07 3:23 PM  
Raging Ranter:

Andrew, you're going to look back on this column and regret writing such childish rubbish. Not that the Conservatives don't deserve criticism for fumbling the detainee issue - they certainly deserve that and more. It's been one embarrassing gaffe after another for two solid weeks.

However, the column itself is a completely failed attempt at irony and wit. How the same Andrew Coyne can write that terrific critique of the income trust racket one week, then write this garbage the next is beyond me. We all have our off days I guess. Do yourself a favour and leave the satire alone. Paul Wells you are not.

2/5/07 3:36 PM  
Greg:

Calgary Junkie

People like you just don't realize that you are doing more damage to your own side than you are to the Liberals.

2/5/07 4:47 PM  
Calgary Junkie:

Greg, I like to look ahead, and try to see what's coming on issues, like for example the environment. Now C30 is clearly the elephant in the Liberal room, that Dion will eventually have to address.

Most of the media, other than Hebert, have avoided it so far. But what about the environmental advocates ? Surely they will realize that its hopeless to keep badgering BAIRD about Kyoto, and they will then turn their guns on Dion.

Will Dion then spin the eco-advocates with: "Yes, I know the planet needs saving, but Canadians don't want an election right now" ?
If so, then the eco-advocates will have THEIR credibility on the line if they meekly accept that from Dion.

Cheers.

2/5/07 5:06 PM  
Greg:

Other then to try and deflect attention, what does this have to with the topic of this article?

exactly.

2/5/07 5:14 PM  
Cerberus:

"For a story to have legs,"

That's a good one Junkie.

This story had a nugget, but the Conservatives gave it legs. Like so many other issues that pop up unscripted, they are masters at turning 2-3 day stories into 2-3 week-long stories.

This story and the opposition questions would have ended in a day if the Conservatives had given two answers that were consistent with each other and if they had taken the issue seriously instead of going on a knee-jerk reaction attack on the opposition.

The Conservatives badly misplayed this softball and badly misread the reaction of Canadians to their choice of handling the issue.

2/5/07 5:23 PM  
islandconservative:

Greg

Thats ok we have another Liberal criminal trial underway in Vancouver for our amusement...it`s the party that keeps on giving!

2/5/07 6:36 PM  
Anonymous:

Paul Martin knew about it as well, as did Chretien. Didn't stop Martin from signing the prisoner exchange agreement. Doesn't seem to be stopping the Liberals blaming the CPC either.

It is always bad times for the Liberal partisan.

2/5/07 7:21 PM  
view from a window:

Paul Wells writes satire? He'll certainly be shocked to learn that his 'satire' will be undistinguishable from ordinary pissy Parisienne waiters.

No, I'd say AC has joined the irony of the Colbert Nation. Swear to god, read the hook and my eyes glazed over; continued only because it's required reading. Big sigh, bigger laugh.

Sure we six figure guys like our Cons with some junk in the trunk but these hapless hillbillies have almost run their Smart 2/4's outa
gas. Let'em roast in the heat and call Mario over for some real Conservative action!

2/5/07 8:39 PM  
Anonymous:

Sure we six figure guys like our Cons with some junk in the trunk but these hapless hillbillies have almost run their Smart 2/4's outa
gas. Let'em roast in the heat and call Mario over for some real Conservative action!


Does anyone else understand what the Hell this is supposed to mean?

Has anyone noticed over the past few weeks the usual lefty nitbags (canukistan, bcl, cderebus) have barely been able to contain their glee at Coyne's articles? I mean, you're fine when regular misguided Liberals agree with you, but nutbars like canukistan? Eeek!

I'm with whoever said it before - good point, but very poorly written. You columns have been going down hill in the quality department lately, Andrew. First you screw up your facts with your 'Vendu' while going off on a silly, quickly proven wrong rant, and now you're guilty of just bad writing.

Perhaps you should have spent a little more time writing this and a little less time patting yourself on the back FOR writing it.

2/5/07 10:00 PM  
Érik Labelle Eastaugh:

Er, Anonymous, AC was bang on with the 'vendu' thing, if a little late off the mark. Your judgment about quality isn't quite as accurate as you seem to think it is. The quality of an article is not measured by the degree to which you agree with it.

There are lots of people saying that they used to like AC's columns, but find they've been going downhill lately. I think those people liked AC when he criticized the Liberal government, and dislike him when he criticizes the Tory government. Their opinions as to the quality of his articles reflect their own biases rather than a judicious assessment of his writing or his arguments.

2/5/07 10:26 PM  
pheenster:

When Liberals shoot the messenger, indulge in ad hominem attacks, etc., we're the first ones to call them on it. We shouldn't stoop to the same tactics. We're supposed to be better than they are, for crying out loud.

Harper and his lads have dropped the ball on this one big time. Not on the issue itself, but in their reaction to it. Cereberus is 100% correct in that a simple "Don't know what you're talking about, but we certainly don't condone torture, and we'll look into it and get back to you" and this whole story goes away. Instead, Harper's front bench is doing their best impression of a Chinese fire drill.* Time for Harper, to man up, own the issue, fire O'Connor and move on.

*Please note that the Chinese fire drill comment was meant in jest, and I would certainly hope that it does not preclude me from being selected as captain of Team Canada at some future date.

2/5/07 10:28 PM  
Anonymous:

"This looks like a no-brainer for Dion. All the stars are aligned for an election. He's got the Afghan detainees and a Kyoto-deficient Green plan from Baird."

Speaking of no brains, it's amazing to me that there are people who think this way.

The Afghan detainees issue taints Liberal and Tory alike; and Kyoto under Martin/Chretien saw a more than 30% jump in CO2, HOWEVER, these are somehow issues which help the Liberals!

This Junkie guy is obviously a fool, but the problem is that the Canadian public probably agrees with him.

2/5/07 10:49 PM  
Calgary Junkie:

Hey Anonymous dude, I'm mocking Dion. Go check what he said back in January, when he was so full of himself as the new Lib leader, about how the planet was at risk unless HE was Prime Minister before 2008 !

So if he really believed such drivel, then why hasn't he move heaven and earth to force an election ? The longer he sits on his hands doing nothing while Baird ignores all the lesser Libs pleas to "bring Bill C30 to the House", then the more and more ridiculous Dion looks.

Another couple of weeks, and it should be obvious even to you that this Kyoto Emperor has no clothes.

2/5/07 11:41 PM  
Ian:

Thanks AC, this was a very funny piece (I like m humour dark). It really is remarkable how badly Harper et al have handled this one - but as a previous poster pointed out, this file has plenty enough hurt in it for both the Libs and the CPC to take a hit.

That any Canadian is not deeply concerned that this gets dealt with properly, ASAP is a sad thought indeed. It would appear that the hapless Tories have at last realized that they need to nip it in the bud - and if they do with expediency and reasonable success, then they will deserve our praise for at last making things right. If they don't, then whatever share of blame the previous govt deserves will be a moot point.

3/5/07 12:29 AM  
Anonymous:

Er, Anonymous, AC was bang on with the 'vendu' thing, if a little late off the mark. Your judgment about quality isn't quite as accurate as you seem to think it is. The quality of an article is not measured by the degree to which you agree with it.

Yeah, he was bang on, except he got the wrong ad at the wrong time and then started whining like a schoolgirl about it. And he got the whole meaning of 'vendu' wrong in the context it was used. But other than that yeah, he was bang on.

And if you actually READ what I wrote, I agreed with Coyne on his point, but I thought it was written poorly, like a lot of his recent stuff. He gets his facts wrong, then bitches and moans when people dare to point it out and his writing lately has been just this side of incoherent.

Also, this non-story is just that - a non-story for everyone except the press. "Furor erupts!" "Story blazes into a firestorm!" Give me a break - the only people talking about this are journalists, columnists and political losers like your and me.

3/5/07 8:36 AM  
Érik Labelle Eastaugh:

"Yeah, he was bang on, except he got the wrong ad at the wrong time and then started whining like a schoolgirl about it. And he got the whole meaning of 'vendu' wrong in the context it was used."

No, he didn't. That add was a stupefyingly obvious double-entendre to anyone who speaks French and is even passingly familiar with Québec history and politics. I can only assume that you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

As for 'whining like a schoolgirl' about it... I only wish more English Canadians actually understood the French language and French Canadian politics as well as AC does. This country would be a lot better off if they did...

Finally, could you please point out which 'facts' he got wrong in the above column? If you're going to level that charge, you'd be well advised to back it up with some evidence. AC might have been off on the release date of those adds, but they were, in fact, Conservative attack adds.

3/5/07 12:59 PM  
Anonymous:

I can only assume that you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

As for 'whining like a schoolgirl' about it... I only wish more English Canadians actually understood the French language and French Canadian politics as well as AC does. This country would be a lot better off if they did...


Actually, I AM Quebecois, so I do understand EXACTLY what was meant by the ad and it wasn't what Coyne tried to make it out to be. Only pathetic Quebecois wannabies tried to make it into something more.

It really makes melaugh when anglaisreporters try and tells us how we should interpret our own language. Thank you sir - we're MUCH too stupid to get the nuance(s) on our own!

The FACTS he got wrong were that he was talking about the WRONG AD when he started his silly little anglais screech and then got all huffy when someone called him on it.

3/5/07 1:33 PM  
Érik Labelle Eastaugh:

Vous êtes facilement distrait. Je vous ai demandé de m'identifier les erreurs dans la chronique dont il est présentement question, non pas de me rappeler quelques petits détails inconséquents d'une autre discussion.

Je ne sais pas qui vous accusez d'être un 'pathetic Québécois wannabe', moi ou AC. Peu importe, c'est une drôle de charge dans l'un ou l'autre cas.

Soit que vous êtes complètement crédule ou de mauvaise volonté. Je ne vois pas d'autre raison qui puisse expliquer votre refus d'admettre que d'aposer une étiquette de 'vendu' près d'une image d'un chef du PLC reconnu pour sa défence acharnée du fédéralisme ne soit pas une accusation de 'trahison contre la race'.

3/5/07 1:46 PM  
Anonymous:

Vous êtes facilement distrait. Je vous ai demandé de m'identifier les erreurs dans la chronique dont il est présentement question, non pas de me rappeler quelques petits détails inconséquents d'une autre discussion.


No, I mentioned that Andrew made a factual mistake in his article about 'vendu' and you tried to turn it into something about his other articles. You are the one fishing for nonsense, not me.

Soit que vous êtes complètement crédule ou de mauvaise volonté. Je ne vois pas d'autre raison qui puisse expliquer votre refus d'admettre que d'aposer une étiquette de 'vendu' près d'une image d'un chef du PLC reconnu pour sa défence acharnée du fédéralisme ne soit pas une accusation de 'trahison contre la race'.

If the ad JUSt used 'vendu' then yes, I would agree with the 'traitor to the race' label, but that's NOT what it said. If you want to read something into an ad that is not there, then maybe that says more about what YOU think about Dion than what the Tories think about him.

3/5/07 2:48 PM  
canuckistanian:

a "quebecois" who can't write in french, but who declares themselves to have a superior undertsnading of the french language than an actual francophone...that is rich. if you are stupid enough to think that "sold as is" doesn't mean "sellout" than you are smart enough to vote conservative.

3/5/07 3:31 PM  
Érik Labelle Eastaugh:

My bad. When I read this:

"And if you actually READ what I wrote, I agreed with Coyne on his point, but I thought it was written poorly, like a lot of his recent stuff. He gets his facts wrong, then bitches and moans when people dare to point it out and his writing lately has been just this side of incoherent."

I understood you to be implying that he got the facts wrong in this case too. Perhaps you only meant that he'd been incoherent. If so, could you please provide an example of this purported incoherence?

Pour ce qui est de l'étiquette 'Vendu tel quel', vous affirmez sans raisonner. Je vous prie de m'offrir une autre explication de la signification de cette étiquette qui soit aussi plausible que celle offerte par AC (et une pléthore d'autre journalistes d'ailleurs).

3/5/07 3:46 PM  
Anonymous:

a "quebecois" who can't write in french, but who declares themselves to have a superior undertsnading of the french language than an actual francophone...that is rich. if you are stupid enough to think that "sold as is" doesn't mean "sellout" than you are smart enough to vote conservative.

I can write in French just fine, dummy. Go play with your toys; the adults are having a conversation.

3/5/07 6:17 PM  
Quebecois Separatiste:

Les Québécois ne sont pas tous Canadien-Français.

Les Canadien-Français ne sont pas tous Québécois.

Moi je suis Québécois. Je ne suis pas Canadien-Français.

C'est tu clair ostie.

3/5/07 7:29 PM  
Quebecois Separatiste:

off topic... but:

About Jan Wong:

“After the Andrew Coyne column, for which she was blamed even though she had nothing to do with it, she felt frightened and vulnerable,” says the woman. “Then she began to get much worse. She was afraid to be at home alone, afraid to go out on her own unless escorted by a family member. Her 13-year-old son was afraid to be alone in the house. She’s a great cook and loves food but was unable to eat and became very thin. She couldn’t sleep. At this point, her doctor diagnosed her as developing depression and she went on medication for it."

http://www.torontolife.com/features/notes-scandal/

poor Wong... I almost feel pity for her.

3/5/07 8:07 PM  
dumbfounded:

Andrew,
I've been on these blogs for awhile and have come to the conclusion that Canada is doomed. I promise not to do this again but see my blog for why

4/5/07 6:29 PM  
benalbanach:

Let me ..please..forget the seriousness of the situation and just enjoy..yes I said enjoy...the piece.
I loved it ! Not that I love torture you understand..Well,not unless it's the kind of torture that this government(?) is putting itself through.
How does it go again ..Fool me once..? ? Eh Steve ? Ask Dubya eh!

4/5/07 9:48 PM  
benalbanach:

Is this the anonymous that invades the RT blog ? (There surely can't be two of them ?!)Thick as the proverbial short-plank.

4/5/07 9:54 PM  
nottawa:

Providing our soldiers with the appropriate level of moral or legal "cover" to perform their duty is no less important than providing them with proper equipment.

One day, if a group of these Taliban wingnuts take a Canadian soldier prisoner, we'll be in a precarious position to argue that they be treated according to the Geneva Convention, etc.

While a bunch of weak0kneed European allies who do not have the nerve to fight the more difficult battles in Afghanistan had (at least) the foresight to cover their humanitarian bases, our government decided that affording our soldiers similar ethical and legal "cover" was of minimal importance.

Shame.

4/5/07 11:13 PM  
view from a window:

Anon 2.5.07 @20:00
Translation for those of you who live above 14th [that's 14th st nyc, oh I forgot, New York City].
'Sure we six figure guys..."=the writer is boasting about his salary. "..like our Cons with some junk in the trunk.."=when we move $ behind a GOP/CPC/Conservative(UK)/Gaullist/Christion Dem. etc we expect them to have the courage of their convictions, ie 'I'm a fat cat [junk in trunk] #@&* and die you commie weasle'. "..but these hapless..."= the CPC, using a vertical non-intergrated management model has crashed under the weight of big dirty files/little or no talent. "..hillbillies.."=a very funny story about Calgary/Nose Hill at the Reform [club, London].
"..have almost run their Smart 2/4's outtagas.."
=skipping next to the Cons climate change pretentions, 'Smart' the car [double entendre #1, as in not!] '2/4's', [dble ent #2, the car model & the beer package format that target mkt is most familar with]. "..outa gas.."= 30% and falling [ their are being shorted, a finanical term that refers to making a profit out of someone else's misery].

So, to review. The writer, close to the lubrication of politics, states that his preference is for Conservative politicians with the courage of their convictions , not unsucessful bummblers who do not manage what small measure of support they had previously garnered

Pt.2
"Let'em roast in the heat.."= an ON response to the heat waves of summer 06 echoing P Lougheed's "let them eastern bastards freeze in the dark..". note[it should be understood that since Alberta's industrial mono base is responsible for 50% of Canada's 35% increase of CO2's, and the Cons refuse to make it a money market, that market cools on the tar patch. Sorry Steve, not quite up to the brilliant marketing of your intellect]. "..call Mario over for some real Con action.."= the smart money is on Mario Dumont to wrest Caesar's crown for the top Con in Canada.

Honestly, are you anon cons given talking points to go to the head? [that's salior talk for having an evacuation].

5/5/07 8:55 PM  
- K:

I agree with what a lot of people have already said here: the incoherence of the government in addressing this issue is one of its most disturbing dimensions.

That said, this strikes me as a symptom of a deeper problem: any debate about Afghanistan in this country seems to lean more towards political maneuvering than substantive discussion.

6/5/07 9:10 PM  
Anonymous:

It is fine to torture Canadians. It is fine to import immigrants to take Canadian's jobs. It is fine to make hockey players answer to parliament. But dammit don't raise my cable rates!

7/5/07 9:54 PM