June 9, 2007

Reworking Kyoto from scratch

The media script was already written long before the G-8 summit concluded. The European nations would close ranks behind the German chancellor’s proposal that the eight commit to a “hard” 50 per cent reduction in greenhouse gas emissions from 1990 levels by 2050. The United States would be isolated, and Canada -- or rather, Stephen Harper -- would be forced to choose: stand alone with President Bush, or welcome the Europeans as his new overlords.

Instead, a rather different script played out...

The media script was already written long before the G-8 summit concluded. The European nations would close ranks behind the German chancellor’s proposal that the eight commit to a “hard” 50 per cent reduction in greenhouse gas emissions from 1990 levels by 2050. The United States would be isolated, and Canada -- or rather, Stephen Harper -- would be forced to choose: stand alone with President Bush, or welcome the Europeans as his new overlords.

Instead, a rather different script played out. Calculating it was better to have the Americans inside the tent than out, the Europeans let Mr. Bush off with a commitment to “substantial” reductions in emissions, with an additional pledge to “consider seriously” the 50% target. In return, Mr. Bush agreed to hold his proposed summit of the world’s largest emitting countries under the existing UN framework, a la Kyoto, rather than in competition with it. Yet it is clear that whatever emerges from the coming round of negotiations will be nothing like Kyoto. A successor to Kyoto, perhaps, but not Kyoto II.

This is all to the good. Whatever your view of the climate change question, there was never any prospect of achieving the required reductions in global greenhouse gas emissions without the US being involved, and no prospect of the US agreeing to reduce its emissions without a similar commitment from China, India and other large developing countries. If that means renegotiating Kyoto from the ground up, so be it. The story of the conference is that the Americans are in. And if the US is in, China and India will have to follow, or face almost certain trade restrictions.

For Canada, this is especially good news, and fully validates the Harper government’s gamble -- that it could walk away from the short-term targets the Chretien government agreed to at Kyoto without serious international consequence. That there was not a word of rebuke in the G8 communique suggests we will not be made to face the penalties prescribed in Kyoto in any subsequent agreement, as would have been the case under a simple Kyoto II scenario. Indeed, the Harper government’s recent commitment to a 60 to 70 percent reduction (from 2006 levels) by 2050 is mentioned approvingly.

If only we had a plan to achieve even these. We may have more realistic targets to work with, but the emission-reduction policies our political leaders have seen fit to propose remain as unrealistic as ever. That’s true not only of the government, but the opposition: the same weird mix of hysteria and complacency can be seen in every party’s platform. So, on the one hand, we have such absurd bits of regulatory overkill as the sudden edict banning lightbulbs, while on the other hand, we get the refusal of all the parties, save the Greens, even to talk about a carbon tax, or any similar device that would impress the social costs of greenhouse gas emissions on consumers. Instead, every party seems to think it is sufficient to target a handful of large corporations -- the so-called “large final emitters.” But the latter account for just half of this country’s emissions. Leaving consumers out of the equation is as silly as negotiating a “global” agreement without the participation of the United States, China and India.

Somewhere between now and 2050, we may get it through our heads that global warming, as serious a challenge as it may present, is not fundamentally different from the everyday problem of scarcity, the predominant concern of economics since its founding. Indeed, if you stop to think about it, scarcity -- the yawning imbalance between our limitless wants as consumers and the finite resources at hand to meet them -- is an even scarier prospect, implying widespread privation and conflict, and not in some far-off future but here and now.

Imagine if we were to become as seized with this problem as we are now with global warming, and imagine if we approached it in the same way: with commissions, and studies, and subsidies; with government pamphlets instructing us how to cut back on our consumption of essential foods and outright bans on peculiarly “wasteful” practices like dining out. The young might bring the same religious zeal to improving efficiency that now they bring to curbing CO2 emissions. Rock stars might encourage us to buy one shirt instead of two, to “leave more for others.”

Or we could just leave it to prices. I mean it when I say that scarcity is no less urgent a problem than climate change, and requires the same universal social commitment to frugality that is now urged upon us in the name of carbon neutrality. And in fact that is exactly what prices extract from us. No matter where we go or what we do, in any sale or purchase we make, prices are there, forcing us to economize in our use of scarce resources -- in effect, to take account of the needs of others, whether we wish to or not.

Prices are the remorseless regulators of a market economy, incorruptible and inescapable, with a reach that the most totalitarian-minded gauleiter could only envy. And they work: where prices are left to do their job, shortages are unknown. We have enlisted them to good effect against scarcity, so much so that we are hardly even aware of it. Why will we not do the same for global warming?

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29 Comments

Grithater:

Why not prices? Because in order to bring prices into effect, actual scarcity must exist. This can never be the case for a negative, for the cost of not doing something could only be created and enforced with one world government........yikes!

Scarcity exists, as a fact, not a construct. The other problem has been eloquently stated by Rex Murphy. Way too many people know most of this is bullshit.

9/6/07 9:27 PM  
Anonymous:

Leaving aside the issue of whether the planet is still warming (temps fell last year and some scientists say cooling trend has begun), and let's ignore the possibility that humankind is not the main cause (melting Martian icecaps anyone), and of course let's also put aside the fact that climate ALWAYS changes and a little warming may be a good thing -- okay, despite all that -- just what is this fixation on targets?

Europe and Canada have committed to targets in the past and failed to meet them. The few European countries that did meet them only did so because non-Kyoto factors shifted them away from coal and heavy industry. Yet, in the same period, the US, without any targets, managed to outperform most of them on emissions. Just last year, US emissions fell despite chalking up more than 3% GDP growth. European emissions rose despite anemic growth.

The targets are a rhetorical sham. Greenhouse gases will be reduced by the most dynamic and innovative economies. The rest will, well, just keep talking a lot of hot air.

9/6/07 10:37 PM  
paul.obeda@:

"Prices are the remorseless regulators of a market economy, incorruptible and inescapable ..."

Interesting thesis. But isn't the basis of your article that the price of some unknown something should be corrupted? Whether it's the price of electricity, or the price of goods manufactured in Canada, or the price of imported goods, or just what it is that should be price-adjusted, it's not clear that it leads to lower consumption. Or lower emissions.

The price of gasoline has risen sharply over the past few years. I have yet to find any economists producing studies confirming the elasticity of demand hypothesis.

Perhaps the citizens of the Niagara region should be given a free pass on emissions because the accident of geography provides them with hydroelectric power. But should it be the citizens of Denmark who are charged for the emissions associated with the manufacture of wind turbines? Should the tax basis be per capita, or per unit of economic production?

The past few summers have shown Ontario extremely high energy prices (largely because of poor management of generation capacity). Does the demand curve reflect conservation during those times? Where is the evidence that such a "tax" on consumption has anything but marginal effect on consumer behaviours? (Let me rephrase: it does have an effect, but the effect is considered marginal.)

It seems more likely that those with the economic means to do so will pass along any added cost (such as the CEO getting more pay, or a union demanding more for its members, or a taxi company raising its fares) and those without such power being further squeezed. Neither scenario offers much behavioural adjustment except that of one's overall economic capacity.

Some have suggested that Kyoto is little more than a BHAG. Are these targets really intended to fix a limit, or to set a direction? Would it really be so wrong to only achieve 40% reductions if the goal is 50%?

9/6/07 11:55 PM  
Mike Moffatt:

"The price of gasoline has risen sharply over the past few years. I have yet to find any economists producing studies confirming the elasticity of demand hypothesis."

Go to JStor. There's literally over a hundred articles estimating the price elasticity of demand for gasoline, including a few summary/review articles and meta-studies which aggregate the data.

The last half of this article (starting with: Somewhere between now and 2050...) I absolutely wish I had written. Great job, AC!

10/6/07 1:03 AM  
paul.obeda@:

Since JStor is not generally accessible, I had to live with regular old Google.

The top several articles confirmed my point: that demand for gasoline is considered inelastic as to price (although, it is found by some to be elastic as to income).

For example, the Mackinac Center for Public Policy lists gasoline demand as inelastic. Hughes, et al concludes that "the short-run price elasticity of gasoline demand is significantly more inelastic today than in previous decades."

Most studies seem to acknowledge that long-run elasticity is very difficult to measure, as many other factors enter into the purchasing decisions. But it seems clear enough that those who can afford to do so, continue to purchase gasoline (and select of vehicles which consume more of it): the surest way to reduce consumption (thus, emissions) would seem to be to reduce affluence. If enough people are thrown out of work, consumption will decline. Raise the minimum wage or other income, and consumption will likely increase.

10/6/07 2:37 AM  
bigcitylib:

I find it hard to extract a conclusion from this, other than maybe "leave it to the magic of the market and prices will save us all". Market Romanticism, in other words.

10/6/07 6:47 AM  
Country Boy:

I don't know much about elasticity and all that stuff, but I do know this - nobody changes their day-to-day habits much based on the price of gasoline. But 7 or 8 years ago when gas prices were low, everyone was buying SUV's Now that prices are high, SUV's are falling out of favour.

The same is true of other things. Raise natural gas or electricity prices and people will keep doing the same stupid things day-to-day. But they start thinking of things like insulation and new windows, etc.

10/6/07 7:48 AM  
Fred :):

"Why will we not do the same for global warming"

Because the vast majority of people are willing to pay a future price for a current benefit. Energy consumption now brings us life options that most people love - cars,air conditioning, jet aircraft flights around the world etc.

This despite all the talk about how green so and so is or how eco-friendly some product is.

The enviros have greatly over played their cards on this by pushing the hysteria machine into overdrive and trying to stampede the herd. They pushed Kyoto as the answer to a problem they invented and then failed to answer the most puzzling illogical aspects of the Accord - if we are all going to die of GW, why do so many many big emitter countries get to do nothing to save us.

Harper was right - Kyoto is/now was a money sucking socialist ponzi scheme masquerading as an environmental treaty.

We are all fortunate that Kyotois dead. The opportunity costs of directing so much economic activity chasing pie-in-the-sky problems was truly frightening. What would have to be sacrificed at the Kyoto altar is any one's guess, but something would have to be given up to pay for all those penance credits.


The new targets that come from the G8 provide lots of time to do something if it is necessary and enough time to see if the 40 years of global warming that did occur post 1960 was a real trend or just another up tick in the long interglacial period in which human society has prospered. The recent data form the last 5- 8 years says we are going into another predictable cooling period and if so, then the 50/50 targets can be abandoned before undue economic harm is caused.

Time will tell.

10/6/07 10:26 AM  
Anonymous:

"The media script was already written long before the G-8 summit concluded. "

Yes, and so was the Opposition Parties' script already written. It seems certain that Layton, Duceppe and May will keep following their old script. But what about Dion ? It seems to me that he is doomed to come out of this looking worse than ever--either as a flip-flopper, or not sufficently green. Let's not forget the little reported recent comment from Ignatieff that the Liberal Party is in danger of being hijacked by enviromental advocates. It's simply short of amazing how Harper has out-manouvered Dion on this file. Dion is clearly out of his element, playing politics at such a high level.

10/6/07 10:52 AM  
Anonymous:

Is it too early to call Dion a "G-8 denier" ?

10/6/07 12:39 PM  
ron in kelowna:

I agree with virtualy every line of Andrew's article.

Especialy this one (paraphrase);

" This is especialy good news for Canada. It fully validates the Harper gov't's gamble that it could walk away from Chretien's signing on to Kyoto's short term targets without international consequence".

PERFECT !!

The whole Kyoto story is nothing, if not fascinating . The folly was started many years ago by a Canadian, Maurice Strong. It was given a boost by Mann's fraudulent 'hockey stick graph'. The United Nations took the scam to new heights. All this would have never happened if not for an 'aiding & abetting' media.

Most of us knew that this latest of pyramid schemes would come to an end. All Tabloid-type stories do. When and how were the unknowns. A lot of credit goes to PMSH. (Remember PMPM wagging his finger on the world stage in Montreal ?)

I hope the countries of the world can now put the Kyoto Hoax behind them and get on with environmental policies of their own making :)

10/6/07 1:16 PM  
FDuquette:

I recall Milton Friedman's analysis that costing the "environment" is a market failure insofar as the market has not a means of costing "sunlight" or "air" in the same manner as oil. Prices alone wont work without regulatory measures (eg, a tax) representing the unaccountable environmental cost which presumably drives up the price and lowers demand.
High energy prices, for example, fuel two beneficiaries - government (via tax) and energy producers, not the environment. Russia's re-emergence as a superpower is being financed by oil, perhaps Iran's nuclear research is enabled by oil revenues and so on - energy means more than price can contain. As several people have noted, demand remains constant amid high prices: we need energy.

10/6/07 2:21 PM  
ron in kelowna:

"High energy prices fuel two beneficiaries; Gov't (taxes) and energy producers.

Not just 'two'. Millions of beneficiaries.

Pension plans, mutual funds, savings, ... Pretty well covers all of us :)

10/6/07 3:06 PM  
Mike Moffatt:

"But it seems clear enough that those who can afford to do so, continue to purchase gasoline (and select of vehicles which consume more of it): the surest way to reduce consumption (thus, emissions) would seem to be to reduce affluence."

I don't see how this is clear at all. The only way you could reliably test this assertion is by using panel data and I don't know of any recent studies that have done this.

The effect could easily be the opposite - that the wealthy will be the ones who could 'avoid' higher carbon taxes while the poor will be the ones who will not cut their consumption.

This could happen if the reductions in consumption are due to increased efficiency and changes in the capital stock. The rich have the resources to buy more fuel efficient cars, new refridgerators, insulation for houses, etc. etc. Since the less affluent often buy their capital stock second-hand, they'll naturally be stuck with older, less efficient cars and appliances. Thus a rise in carbon taxes could be avoided by the rich and paid for by the poor.

Now, I don't know if my story is more likely than your story, but I don't know that it isn't, either. There's no way of knowing for sure by looking at purely aggregate data.

There is evidence for my hypothesis if you look at other taxes. Historically the wealthy have avoided high marginal income tax rates far easier than the poor. Joe Sixpack doesn't have the ability to put his life savings in a Cayman Island holding corporation.

10/6/07 3:20 PM  
Stephen:

Excellent article. Yes a carbon tax is the dirty unsaid answer. I hate taxes but the prescription is correct for the stated problem. I make no claims as to the reality of the problem though.

Beats credit trading I believe.

Yes Kyoto was a terrible treaty and the deeper it is buried the better. It doesnt solve the problem with China and India out of the picture.

Mt Simpson eripted with a good article that effectively endorsed intensity targets....it is the only way to solve the growth problem. Rewards those who can produce a give % of GDP for the lowest amount of Carbon emission. Once again assuming CO2 emissions are a problem then the most effecient users of it should be allowed to use the resource.

As for the market romanticism of some. Well the market generally works so it is more a realistic view, there are some who romanticise some elements incorrectly but it has proved to be the best answer to most problems. If central planning and management by bureaucrats worked I would support that, it doesnt so I dont.

AC, put this article aside for late this year when you are deciding which articles worked best

10/6/07 5:39 PM  
paul.obeda@:

"The effect could easily be the opposite - that the wealthy will be the ones who could 'avoid' higher carbon taxes while the poor will be the ones who will not cut their consumption."

Not from the evidence in the studies I cited above, which showed that the higher the income, the less likely the consumer was to react to price. And we know that some consumers (governments, transportation companies for goods & people) are unable to react to price except by passing along any increase.

All that these proposed additional taxes would do is shift the income:demand curve to the point where fewer people have sufficient income to be able to afford to drive. And then all you've done is reduce effective affluence. Reduce people's Standard of Living.

The underlying commodity not actually being scarce, there is little additional motivation for consumers to make moral choices to avoid consumption (arguably the main motivator of sales of the more expensive efficient vehicles today), as they are forced instead by economic choices.

The evidence shows what behaviours will result: the more elastic choices (such as eating out) will adjust their demand downward in favour of more inelastic choices (such as gasoline consumption). That is, until such time as people get more income to adjust for the inflationary hit and restore their Standard of Living.

More people will be forced to live in the city (with published models showing thousands more out of work because of the demand reductions induced by higher prices of goods & services) because they cannot afford a car (their affluence having been reduced by the price increases of most goods and services), and some people will appear to choose more expensive, more efficient autos. But over the long term, as the economy readjusts and restores their buying power, history shows that they will choose the model of car that appeals to them, not the one they're economically forced into choosing.

And history shows that given the economic choice, people want space, comfort, safety, etc over gas milage.

The rich will continue to purchase whatever vehicles they can afford. Everyone else will adjust their consumption - but the evidence is that it won't be gasoline consumption that's avoided in significant volume.

Raising income taxes on the poor and middle class would have a similar effect on their ability to make these same economic choices, with the added bonus of being more difficult to escape by asking one's employer for a raise. Raising the minimum wage can be expected to have the opposite effect.

Maybe it's time for the environmentalists to argue for tax increases (well, shifts towards collecting more from the poor, in order to remain revenue-neutral) and reductions in the minimum wage.

10/6/07 6:05 PM  
Gord Tulk:

I will precis my comments by stating that I think anthropomorphic GW is insignificant and that Kyoto et al are a collossal waste of human productive capacity. As a result tens if not hundreds of millions of people will suffer and die needlessly as fiscal resources are squandered and economic growth reduced trying in vain to control our planet's climate.

Unless Exxon Mobil is able to control the energy irradiation levels of the sun, this may be the greatest act of human hubris ever.

...

Carbon trading and offset purchases have only recently been legislated and already they are rife with corruption and waste.

a couple of examples:

If a farmer is currently growing his crops using zero-or mimimum-till practices - because it is the least expensive method of doing so, he can now get funding by selling it as a carbon offset compared to using tillage. He may have been doing zero-till for a decade or more - it doesn't matter money flows from someone else to him and no Co2 production is actually avoided. And the farmer gets this payment every year. And how big a monitoring force are you going to require?

In the area of carbon sequestration - pumping CO2 into a underground reservoir - the potential to cheat is easy. An injection zone that is thought to be airtight will require more and more pump pressure to force the CO2 into the ground and thus the cost of sequestration will go up over time. This can easily be solved by drilling another well some place distant into the same reservoir to allow the CO2 to leak right back out into the atmosphere. How in the hell would you ever catch or police such activity?

...
So, as a commenter above noted a Carbon tax is the only way to truly slow or reduce CO2 production.

The problem is that the only really fair way to do it is to tax it only at the final point of consumption - usually the gas pump or the house meter. And there have to be no exceptions, not only within Canada but within the entire world, otherwise those who enforce the tax will be at a competitive disadvantage to those who cheat or are lax in enforcement. The political difficulties are obvious and odious as well.

Treaties that allow for tariffication and other trade-based remedies to punish cheaters have be a part of the deal.

Good luck getting Iran and the Sudan, etc. to sign-on.

10/6/07 6:37 PM  
Mike Moffatt:

"All that these proposed additional taxes would do is shift the income:demand curve to the point where fewer people have sufficient income to be able to afford to drive."

That's not shown by the papers you've cited.

There will be substitution as well as income effects, as the relative prices of various options are altered.

Calculating the price elasticity of gasoline is difficult, since so many other things are going on in the economy when gas prices rise (or fall), so it's hard to isolate a true ceteris paribus type figure.

Also, a tax increase is naturally going to work differently than the naturally high volatility of gasoline prices. In the former instance, the consumer knows the price hike is permanent. In the second, consumers and firms may not be willing to make new capital investments, as they are uncertain if the price change will be lasting.

To examine the potential response to an increase in carbon taxes, one needs to examine responses in other jurisdictions where carbon taxes have been increased. The German experience would be a good start (see: The effects of environmental fiscal reform in Germany: a simulation study - Bach et. al.) Of course, there's a lot of differences between Germany and Canada (or the U.S.) so it's still not a perfect method.

It's tough to say with any real certainty what the magnitude (and distribution) of consumer response would be to an increase in gasoline taxes. Given the available evidence, I wouldn't go out on a limb and make any bold predictions, such as a perfect inelastic demand curve for the wealthy.

10/6/07 6:41 PM  
Mike Moffatt:

Thanks for posting the Hughes et. al. study. I've seen it before, but I had forgotten that they had used panel data to investigate the role income plays in the price elasticity of demand.

But RE:

"Not from the evidence in the studies I cited above, which showed that the higher the income, the less likely the consumer was to react to price."

The paper you posted showed in fact the opposite:

"...on average, gasoline consumption is more sensitive to price changes as income rises. This somewhat counterintuitive result is supported by the household gasoline demand analysis conducted by Kayser (2000) whi also find a negative coeffecient on the prioce income interaction term. The hypothesis by Kayser is that as incomes rise, a greater proportion of automobile trips are discretionary. Alternatively, at lower income levels, teh amount of travel has already been reduced to the minimum leaving little room for adjustment to higher prices..." (page 16)

Either way, I don't think this is too helpful as a predictive tool to determine what would happen if a sizeable carbon yax were to be put in place, because of the naturally differing responses to a permanent and a (potentially) temporary rise in prices.

10/6/07 6:54 PM  
Gord Tulk:

Mike Moffat et al:

I think it can be agreed that at some level a carbon tax would drastically reduce consumption. The problem is that that at that level no government would survive the next election.

It's a NIMGT - .Not In My Gas Tank' mentality that truly demonstrates where the public's real position is on this issue.

10/6/07 6:58 PM  
Anonymous:

"I find it hard to extract a conclusion from this, other than maybe "leave it to the magic of the market and prices will save us all". Market Romanticism, in other words."

Yes, that's exactly the conclusion you are supposed to draw from the article. If you set the carbon tax high enough, you create incentives for people to buy carbon efficient products. You also make alternative technologies more competitive overnight and, as a result, stimulate private sector research in developing those technologies. Also, if you use the revenue from the carbon tax to cut income and business taxes, you free up capital to let people make investments in those technologies.

I don't think the Green's tax shifting policy is an electoral loser. Those against raising gas taxes and lowering business and income taxes will need a much better argument than I've seen here.

If the shift is done right, it will increase market pressures for people and companies to increase carbon efficiency and provide them with the capital to do it. It will also increase investment in development of more carbon efficient technologies.

That's how I see it, but maybe I'm wrong. All I know is that if gas taxes are bad economic policy, why don't we raise income taxes and cut gas taxes? Why do we always demand income tax cuts at election time and not gas tax cuts?

11/6/07 12:41 PM  
Fred :):

Anonymous:

Is it too early to call Dion a "G-8 denier" ?
10/6/07 12:39 PM

Yes . .

but you can still call him a "WARMonger"

11/6/07 1:40 PM  
paul.obeda@:

MM: Thanks for that; rather silly of me to have misread my own citation like that. (And I'll take your word for it; I'm too busy now to go back and re-read it to see where I got it wrong.)

I still don't see any confirmation of the hypothesis that a nominal carbon tax would achieve the desired result. Rather, GHG-emitting energy consumption would primarily eat up more of a household's budget as more discretionary spending (such as eating out) gave way, and only modest reductions in consumption would be seen.

And if substituting choice of vehicles is the goal (that choice being considered highly elastic), there are more effective ways of going about it, such as raising CAFE requirements on manufacturers to limit the choice consumers are legally offered. It has worked before.

11/6/07 1:57 PM  
gord:

Anon:

imposing carbon taxes and reducing income taxes would absolutely devastate those people and businesses at lower incomes. Also, Canada would be ruined economically if it did such a thing unilaterally.

12/6/07 12:52 AM  
Gord Tulk:

that last post was mine. blogger is weird stuff to a me

12/6/07 12:55 AM  
FDuquette:

I recall logical analysis by Gilbert Ryle which noted the "category error": to attribute to one phenomena the attributes of another. If prices are argued to regulate scarcity (and conserve the environment), we have the equivocation of prices with regulatory powers. IS that a category error?
A thermometer measures temperature, but does not regulate it. Is price but a thermometer of scarcity...of course, high prices cause change, the invisible hand is the regulatory response to what the price-thermometer reports, organizing economic forces; however, if a fire breaks out in your car while driving, the only regulatory response the thermostat will prompt is air conditioning. Its a solution to the scarcity of cool air in the cadillac; but to deal with the fire requires human agency (the panic-striken, choking driver pulling over on the highway).
One could argue that reliance on prices both diminishes "human/govt control" and may require of prices a regulatory burden it cannot bear.

12/6/07 11:16 AM  
TonyGuitar:

Kyoto and ME Views

You said; **I have no strong views on the Middle East**

I say, Not possible.

Opec is beginning to squirm.

The UK has discovered electric cars and lorries / trucks.

Brazil is 80% [cane based] biofuels, 20% gas and diesel.

France makes and uses compressed air taxis for Paris and exports thousands to India.

California firm ships 10,000 small electric vehicles for postal service in France. If Opec clams up, the French still get bills to pay.
http://BendGovernment.blogspot.com

Prius, [ only one of many hybrid brands], passes the Million units sold mark.

Will all these alternate auto powering modes tend to defang Iran and Islamofascists? You bet!

Do you and I want to get about town free of gas and diesel extortion and their stinking exhausts? You bet!

Not too keen on any Iranian Shia lifestyle enforced by religious police beatings either.

We all have strong views about the Middle East. Yes?

TonyGuitar.blogspot.com

12/6/07 12:33 PM  
Jim in the 'Peg:

Not a bad week's work. Kyoto is now shoved off to the UN talking shop where it will be the subject of endless resolutions and diplomatic shmoozing. With mainland China flexing it's new economic muscle, and also it's security council veto, the prospect of a global GHG reduction deal is now probably rather remote. But since the UN is on the case, that won't much matter to the Greens et al.

As a cynical climate change denier, that's just fine for me. By the time the UN is able to come close to a GHG deal, the climate will have moved on, solar radiation or whatever will be on the down part of its cycle, global warming will be yesterday's news, and life will go on.

14/6/07 12:28 AM  
Anonymous:

"imposing carbon taxes and reducing income taxes would absolutely devastate those people and businesses at lower incomes."

This could easily be rectified by building-in a carbon tax rebate similar to the GST rebate for low income earners.

"Also, Canada would be ruined economically if it did such a thing unilaterally."

How? Average Canadians should receive the same cut in their income taxes that they would now be required to pay in gas or carbon taxes should they not change their habits. If they become more carbon efficient, they save on their taxes. More opportunities for increased carbon efficiency would come into play because of the higher price of fossil fuels. In the long term, we'd produce less GHGs and pay less taxes.

14/6/07 2:19 PM