July 8, 2007

The peril in picking "national champions"

What is an economy? Is it an outcome -- or a process? A thing -- or a set of relationships? A machine -- or an ecosystem?

I ask, because people tend to think in metaphors: much wrong thinking about the economy begins as the wrong metaphor. When people talk about “building” an economy, for example, or when they refer to this or that industry as the “engine” of economic growth, they reveal an understanding of the economy as inanimate object, a thing to be crafted to their design, rather than the intersected ambitions and exertions of millions of their fellow citizens, each with his own designs in mind.

So it is with the “hollowing out” debate.... Those who bemoan the “loss of our family jewels” to foreigners have incorporated into that one passage three curious assumptions: that because a company changes hands it ceases to exist (“loss”), that the companies do not belong to their legal owners, past or present, but to some disembodied collective (“our”), and that they have a value beyond what they are worth to their shareholders, as measured by the price at which they are sold (“jewels”). These may be true in a poetic sense, but not an economic one, which is how they are usually presented.

And so, when the same people call for a policy of selective promotion of “national champions,” when they insist that certain “strategic” industries be declared off limits to foreigners, when they sigh that Canada has lost its pre-eminence in mining, or energy, or some other traditional industry, they are merely substituting their own preferences for those of the people who actually own these companies.

But what about those who merely suggest that Canada should aim, as a general policy, to create and nurture “global leaders,” giant companies in the first rank of their industry world-wide -- those, such as Roger Martin and Gord Nixon, dean of the Rotman School of Business and president of the Royal Bank respectively, whose provocative essay in Another Leading Paper I mentioned last time. Both would disavow any overt policy of forbidding foreign takeovers, or any explicit attempt to pick winners. Yet even in this more benign form, the same basic misconception is at work, with the inevitable policy consequences.

Indeed, what others would do directly they would do indirectly. Where others would prohibit foreign investment outright, they call for a policy of reciprocity, approving takeover applications only from companies whose home countries offer ours the same treatment, on the grounds that in “the real world” there is no “level playing field.” But this has it backwards. If there were some practical likelihood that “reciprocity” would lead to a reciprocal lowering of trade and investment barriers, there might be something to recommend it. But in the “real world,” that is almost never the case. It just becomes an excuse for inaction.

Their call for more stringent conditions on foreign takeovers, or for prohibiting those by state-owned firms, tend in the same direction, and for the same reason: because they have set out, as a first principle, that Canadian economic policy must be directed to developing global leaders. “We need to be building as many globally competitive firms ... as possible,” they write. “ It has to our No. 1 economic policy... We must have a sense of urgency.” The collectivism is perhaps unconscious, but it is there.

Obviously I have nothing against globally competitive firms. And indeed one should expect these to arise in a large and prosperous economy such as ours. It’s just not as clear to me that the causality runs the other way. Quick, name a dominant “global leader” from Iceland. Or Ireland. Or Austria. Yet all have higher standards of living than we do.

And that, surely, is what we should be aiming at. More than two centuries ago, Adam Smith offered the revolutionary idea that the proper objective of trade policy was not to earn gold for the treasury, but to increase the welfare of the people. To that end, he offered an equally scandalous prescription: that decisions on what to produce, and by which means, should be guided, not by the king’s ministers, but by the choices of consumers -- since, after all, consumption is the whole point of production.

I beg to propose something similar. Human ingenuity and compound interest being what they are, people will tend to combine their energies in ways that make them wealthier over time, if you a) let them, and b) force them. The first would suggest removing barriers to the acquisition of productive resources. So cut tax rates, and loosen controls on the movement of labour and capital, both within and across national boundaries. And the second?

You can have all the productive resources you like, but absent some spur to combine them in the most efficient way, people will tend to less efficient compromises. The spur is competition -- the more of it the better. You don’t want to promote global leaders, at the policy level, as if by some slow, careful process of accretion. You want to tear them down and rebuild them, over and over: Schumpeter's “creative destruction.”

And which sectors are the most protected from competition in this country? Those where national policy effectively prohibits foreign competition, either directly or through restrictions on ownership: telecoms, transportation, and financial services being the three biggest examples. Not surprisingly, some of Canada’s largest firms are found in these sectors, and as such might be considered candidates for “national champion” status. But their success comes at the expense of the rest of the economy.

A policy of prosperity, therefore, would suggest opening these sectors to the world. Whereas a policy of promoting “global leaders” would suggest the opposite.

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39 Comments

Anonymous:

Why is this column surrounded by posts from May, videos from February, and photos from last year?

8/7/07 11:35 PM  
Anonymous:

re: previous post

picky picky
let's fire the webmaster!

9/7/07 12:19 AM  
Bill Neapole:

Oh, and by the way, how about including in the list of "national champions" our other sacred cow industry that is wholly without competition (unless you leave the country to find it) - Health Care.

The only thing worse than a monopoly, is a Government monopoly..!!

9/7/07 1:28 AM  
Belinda S.:

The economy is a pie, dummy!

9/7/07 12:45 PM  
D'Arcy:

To Bill Neapole, and the others reading this thinking in the same lines.

I find the "government monopoly" idea behind health interesting and completely without basis. There are certain essential services that should be provided to all without consequence to turning a profit.

If following the logic that all services should be open to competition, then you should also be arguing for the privatization of other services such as the fire department or the police department.

9/7/07 6:01 PM  
Grithater:

To d'arcy: Do you live in Canada, or some idealistic fantasy version of what you want it to be? Healthcare provided to all? What rot.

Timely access to healthcare in Canada depends on who you know, so you can use connections to jump the queue. Tell me with a straight face that a 60 year old judge and a 60 year old retired garbage collector get the same access to cardiac diagnosis and treatment and I'll have found my first pure idiot.

A government healthcare monopoly achieves only one thing, which is to sodomize the middle class. The elites, be it money or position, get first class healthcare as and when they need it. The middle class, which pays all the bills waits in a bureaucratic nightmare of centrally planned idiodicy, until the system pumps them out their unit of healthcare, not how they need it, but how a bureaucrat believes they should get it.

In a privately insured system, the broad middle class gets excellent timely care, and the poor suffer the bureaucratic nightmare. Eighty percent of the population are well cared for, the remaining twenty are a public policy problem. In Canada, five percent get the excellent care, the other ninety-five get equal access to crap, all in the name of ideology.

Sad.

9/7/07 6:55 PM  
wjo:

The mandarins of government should no more be picking "winners" to boost in an economy than they should be deciding fashions in clothes. They do not possess any keener insight into the future of the world than any consumer. Of course, if Canadians desire a guild economy, they will be welcoming a stagnant economy.

Additionally, to do so is a recipe for the creation of permanent rent seekers in these "winners" (e.g., Bombardier, Airbus, etc.)and a concomitant oligarch class who will utilize their governmental influence to stifle competitors. As was said in the days of the National Policy: "Those whom the tariff looks after will look after the tariff."

10/7/07 9:57 AM  
Stevo:

D'Arcy:

It is the left-wing demagoguery of people like you that has made Canada's healthcare system the second-worst in the developed world, after the United States. Congratulations.

Maybe one day Canada will get over this class warfare and realize that maybe it's not so bad if the wealthy pay extra to be put up in fancy clinics with good food if it means the rest of us (the 95% alluded to by Grithater) have a little more space in public hospitals. Elitists like former PM Paul Martin who go on the rampage against anyone who dares to suggest adopting a European-style hybrid system yet who quietly obtain their own healthcare through private means are scum.

10/7/07 10:18 AM  
Érik Labelle Eastaugh:

Wow. Why are you guys all so angry? Do you not get enough respect at work or something?

10/7/07 11:02 AM  
wsam:

Stevo,

So move to France.

I agree. We should force our sluggish industrial behemoths to compete in the international arena. Like media companies. Like protected from foreign competition: CanWest.

If CanWest was forced to trim its fat the National Post wouldn’t exist. The Canadian market just isn’t big enough for the kind of centre-right bleating and fictional headline writing the National Post offers for it to survive as a reputable national daily. But, of course, that doesn’t matter because CanWest can acquire and sell businesses internationally, milking them for profits, secure its home market is protected.

A National Post columnist complaining about how protecting industry sectors and picking national champions breeds inefficiency is like the proverbial kettle chucking rocks at the pot from inside its glass solarium. It’s the journalistic equivalent of welfare fraud.

10/7/07 11:12 AM  
r a:

But at least the NP competes with the NY Times or Wall Street Journal at the newsstand. But you can't sign up with Verizon, or bank with Citibank or fly American from Toronto to Halifax, because these are all "strategic" industries which have to be protected (at the expense of the consumer and long-term economic growth).

10/7/07 11:47 AM  
wsam:

Apples to Oranges. While major routes would benefit from competition, there will always be routes, like to the far north, which Canadians will agree it is in our national interest to somehow subsidize. (Though, I agree, we might have the means wrong). It doesn’t make economic sense to force Air Canada to offer flights to Iqaluit, for example, but there is a national sense to it.

If the National Post was subject to the same market forces as the New York Times, or the Wall Street Journal, it would fall so quickly downmarket that a three-page automotive supplement would look good by comparison. Its agenda, or bias, just isn’t that popular with the reading public. The newpaper survives because it is owned by a corporation protected from foreign competition. A corporation who benefits from exactly the same industrial policy Andrew Coyne decries.

The salient point here is the hypocrisy journalists such as Andrew Coyne display, as insightful as he personally might at times be, whenever they heckle Canadian industrial policy.

The National Post gives him a platform he would not otherwise have. Sans the National Post the space available for the centre right point of view would be that much smaller. Especially at a national level. That means centre right opinions would lack a national forum, it would up to individual columnists to promote them. The National Post’s editorial board wouldn't exist to legitimize them. Pushing them that much further onto the fringe. Where the centre-right would share the same fate as all the other ideational detritus the Canadian mainstream has discarded, the free market jihadis, militant Catholics, Orange Lodge Ulster Unionists and the unrepentant Marxist-Leninists who are all shunned by polite opinion.

I think that the Canadian argument on a whole would be worse off without the National Post. But I cannot help but notice the contradiction between the ideas it espouses and the reality it benefits from.

10/7/07 1:47 PM  
r a:

apples to oranges indeed. where is the connection between forcing carriers to serve remote locations and not allowing foregin carriers in? You could let American Airlines fly domestic routes in Canada, under the condition they service Iqaluit, or let them in wihtout forcing them to serve Iqaluit, or not let them in but force Air Canada to serve Iqaluit or any other possible combination. But there is no relation between making airliners serve certain markets and keeping foreign competition out.

As regards newspapers, they are already in a competitive environment - amongst themselves, as well as with foreign papers, magazines, internet etc. If we could get the banks, airlines and telcos into such a competitive market we'd be off to a good start. But to do so we'd have to drop some of our dearly held ideas about "national champions" first.

10/7/07 2:45 PM  
wsam:

“But there is no relation between making airliners serve certain markets and keeping foreign competition out.”

Unless, of course, we want to use profitable routes to finance unprofitable ones, those hypothetical flights to Iqaluit have to be paid for somehow. An argument for keeping foreign competitors out does exist, I’m just not sure it’s the best one. But it does exist. How do you propose we pay for air service to Iqaluit?

Are the many and varied difference between flying to Halifax and reading a newspaper so hard to grasp?

CanWest keeps the National Post alive to the determinant of its bottom-line. Perhaps this makes a certain business sense in terms of media synergies. However, the decisions CanWest’s management make are undeniably tempered by the fact their home market is protected. They do not operate according to the same business calculus as the New York Times, or the Wall Street Journal.

Andrew Coyne is a beneficiary of the industrial practices he regularly decries. To rant against Air Canada without mentioning his employer is hypocritical.

I would like to repeat:

"I think that the Canadian argument on a whole would be worse off without the National Post. But I cannot help but notice the contradiction between the ideas it espouses and the reality it benefits from."

10/7/07 4:33 PM  
r a:

Wrong. The question of whether to use profitable airline routes to subsidize unprofitable ones is just not related to keeping foreign carriers out of the local market. They are two entirely distinct regulatory issues. Period.

10/7/07 5:03 PM  
Tom Smyth:

I have been following AC's reasoning on this topic for some time, and it seems to me that the 'bad metaphor' phenomenon expressed in this column is a bit of a straw man.

I think the real reason people are concerned about large Canadian companies being purchased by foreigners is that it will eventually lead to actual negative consequences for Canada, such as job loss due to headquarters relocation.

Consider the extreme situation, in which nearly all large employers were controlled from without. Is that not tantamount to a colony?

Would AC argue that such foreign acquisitions do not represent some loss of sovereignty? Perhaps so, and perhaps convincingly. But I think this is the more relevant question, and I would like to hear that argument.

10/7/07 6:05 PM  
Grithater:

Érik Labelle Eastaugh said...
Wow. Why are you guys all so angry? Do you not get enough respect at work or something?


Maybe Erik it is because we are members of a middle class which pay half of our incomes and rising to multiple levels of government to provide us with poor and ever worsening services. When we make reasoned complaints about this situation, we are routinely met with condescending crap such as your post. It might tick you off as well, were you to experience it.

10/7/07 7:01 PM  
AC:

WSAM - Your point is nonsensical. It's not "hypocrisy" to bite the hand that feeds you: that is, to argue against something that benefits you.

It would (arguably) be hypocrisy to argue for open trade and free markets generally, but to make a special exception for one's own industry (unless the exception were well-grounded!). But I don't. I argue in favour of opening up the communications market to any and all competitors, foreign or domestic, notwithstanding my employment in that industry.

So I'm arguing against my own self-interest, at least as you define it. As opposed, say, to arguing in support of subsidies and regulations that benefit me, which is what many of my media confreres do.

10/7/07 8:04 PM  
r a:

Tom Smyth:

"Consider the extreme situation, in which nearly all large employers were controlled from without. Is that not tantamount to a colony?"

Well, there are about 190 countries in the world, most of them smallish, and for most of them that is the reality. But it would seem to be a relatively minor factor in determining their level of prosperity. The difference between Hungary, say, and Zimbabwe is the difference between good and bad government not the difference in the strength or number of their "national champions."

But consider the opposite extreme situation, where every nation - in order to avoid the indignity of being considered a colony - insists on having a "national champion" in every "strategic" industry, i.e banking, telecom, steel, cars, computers, etc, and doesn't allow foreigners in. Global GNP would be back to the level of the 1930s.

10/7/07 10:36 PM  
Declan:

"You don’t want to promote global leaders, at the policy level, as if by some slow, careful process of accretion. You want to tear them down and rebuild them, over and over: Schumpeter's “creative destruction.”

And which sectors are the most protected from competition in this country? Those where national policy effectively prohibits foreign competition, either directly or through restrictions on ownership: telecoms, transportation, and financial services being the three biggest examples."


I think Shumpeter's point with regard to creative destruction was really that allowing more foreign competition is pretty much irrelevant since what will matter in the long run is competition from new ways of doing things, not from more companies doing the same thing.

It is also far from his point of view (in my opinion) that 'creative destruction' should only ever be encouraged - he saw it as a process to be managed by government, rather than one to be always promoted. For example,


"Old concerns and established industries, whether or not directly attacked, still live in the perennial gale. Situations emerge in the process of creative destruction in which many firms perish that nevertheless would be able to live on vigorously and usefully if they could weather a particular storm. Short of such crises or depressions, sectional situations arise in which the rapid change of data that is characteristic of that process so disorganizes an industry for the time being as to inflict functionless losses and to create avoidable unemployment.

...

All this is of course nothing but the tritest common sense, But it is being overlooked with a persistence so stubborn as sometimes to raise the question of sincerity."

10/7/07 11:58 PM  
wsam:

Having re-read your article I can find no mention of the National Post, the least competitive big newspaper in Canada, a marketplace failure. Media companies are among the largest of Canadian firms. Canwest, for example, recently purchased ‘The New Republic’ in the United States and has previously bought foreign broadcasters, such as in New Zealand. As with B.C.E. and Telos CanWest is a protected industry. In an article purporting to argue that industrial policy of this type hurts the Canadian consumer, having a lowered standard of living among its effects, it would seem hypocritical to not mention CanWest, one’s employer.

CanWest uses its proceeds to prop up an uncompetitive product, the National Post. This gives centre-right opinion in Canada an unearned platform, one the very marketplace it so ardently champions says it doesn't deserve. I think maybe ‘nonsensical’ doesn’t mean exactly what you think it means.

11/7/07 11:10 AM  
Bill Neapole:

WSAM - -

My guess is that Andrew, as perhaps the most consistently insightful commentator of the "center-right" (to use your term), would have a platform whether the National Post existed or not..

Bill Neapole

11/7/07 1:14 PM  
wsam:

That’s not the point. In the National Post’s absence, centre-right ideas would lack a national platform and would thus be pushed further to the fringe.

Clearly unsuited to free market competition CanWest has to subsidize the National Post and the centre-right, free-market apostles who write for it from its other businesses.

That writers like Andrew Coyne are taken seriously in the Canadian argument is a good thing. The Canadian consumer benefits from having a diversity of opinion from which to choose. That a strict adherence to market forces would deprive Canadians of some of that diversity is a good example of why market values should not in every case be dominant.

This is the little nugget of irony found at the heart of the National Post’s being.

11/7/07 1:56 PM  
Érik Labelle Eastaugh:

Grithater -

Coming from someone with the word 'hate' in his handle, your post is pretty rich.

It's also total nonsense. You can be upset by a policy and make arguments against it without calling its proponent a "pure idiot". There's also a difference between argument and invective. Your blind assertion that the health care received by 95% of the population is 'crap', and that people with certain types of jobs receive better care than others, is totally meaningless as a contribution to reasoned debate, being as it is totally bereft of any supporting evidence, or even the most tenuous relationship to reality. However, it does say a great deal about your perspective on the world, which appears to be defined by a deep and abiding sense of frustration.

If you feel the need to justify yourself by bludgeoning other points of view with hollow rage, feel free. But spare me the sanctimonious "we, the poor, downtrodden middle-class" routine.

What rot.

11/7/07 11:03 PM  
Grithater:

ELE,

Lets say that I have ben having a partisan debate with a colleague for a few years now, and he gave me the nickname "grithater", would all that you have read in to my "handle" hold?

My assertion that judges receive better access to healthcare is not blind, it is an observed fact. Either make the case to the contrary, or concede the point. Again Erik, spare me your sanctimony. We in the middle class are not downtrodden, we are taxed the same as the wealthy, and excluded from services based upon income, like the wealthy, but minus the wealth. Do not, for a moment read this as envy. The frustration is that Canada exudes smugness on it's egalitarianism, yet the reality in areas such as healthcare is so different. Not a problem if you can purchase alternative, but after the first class taxes, we lack the resources to do so.

12/7/07 12:40 PM  
Érik Labelle Eastaugh:

"My assertion that judges receive better access to healthcare is not blind, it is an observed fact. Either make the case to the contrary, or concede the point."

Sorry, but your claim to have 'observed' certain facts is not in the least convincing. Even if I accept that you personally saw such a thing happen (and I don't see how that would be possible, since medical information is confidential), it remains nothing more than anecdotal evidence, which is hardly dispositive. Furthermore, nothing in the logic of our system requires that judges receive better health care, so your criticism isn't so much against our single-payer system as against the unethical doctors who let him jump the queue. Finally, I can just as easily counter your 'facts' with my own 'facts', which contrdict yours, and we would be nowhere. Unless you have got your hands on an independant study of some kind demonstrating systematic bias towards judges (or other influential persons), this argument simply cannot be resolved in a rational manner. And since what you say is dramatically out of sync with my own experience of our health care system, my inclination is to remain skeptical of your position.

Your point about the middle-class seems to me, in its present form, incoherent. Your first argument, that private health care is better because it benefits the middle class, is totally inconsistent with your complaint that the health-system treats judges better than garbage collectors. Either you want the well-off to be treated better, or you don't. Make up your mind.

Your second argument I have to admit, makes very little sense to me. I think what you're saying is that the rich can go to the US and get 'good' health care, while the middle-class are stuck in Canada. But my understanding is that the US health care system does *not*, in fact, provide better care. They spend 50% more than we do as a percentage of GDP on health care, yet most indicators that I've heard of place Canada above the U.S. in terms of health care outcomes.

Oh, and about your handle, no, it wouldn't change my mind. You still chose that persona, which says something about you.

12/7/07 3:41 PM  
Anonymous:

there will always be routes, like to the far north, which Canadians will agree it is in our national interest to somehow subsidize.

I disagree that "Canadians" agree that certain regions must get subsidized transportation. Favoured constituents want it, and they get it through the magic of being swing voters in key ridings. The politicians, bureaucrats and pseudo-entrepreneurs who benefit from such schemes are also partial to subsidy scams, for obvious reasons. Recipients of other forms of government handouts can also be counted on to cheer for this kind of thing. The rest of us are less than impressed.

The complaints about how foreign takeovers will lead to "HQ job losses" seem to be founded on the belief that Canadians are so stupid and talentless that no foreign company would want to employ them in a managerial, administrative or planning capacity. Another bit of presumptuousness which happens to be very lucrative for government nannies and their cronies but deeply harmful - both financially and psychically - to everyone else. In any case, if there is a high number of takeovers of Canadian businesses, as opposed to the other way 'round, it's an indictment of the ridiculously confiscatory and crippling tax and regulatory schemes which have prevented Canadians from being able to save money, invest in and nurture homegrown, unsubsidized businesses.

That AC is a hypocrite because he works for a protected media conglomerate is a spurious argument. It is virtually impossible for anyone in Canada, no matter how much they despise government interference, to make a living without being forced to accept government "help" in some form. They tie your shoelaces together, boot you in the rear and knock you into the mud, pick your pocket, use a small part of the proceeds to buy you a handkerchief to wipe your face, then they act all hurt if you complain about it. I don't think Coyne is particularly worried about being able to make a living if his employers had their subsidies removed. Are you? Or is it everyone else you're worried about?

12/7/07 5:59 PM  
Grithater:

ELE,

First summer day of the year where I live, so I will only address one point, more when it goes back to rain and fog.
"
Your point about the middle-class seems to me, in its present form, incoherent. Your first argument, that private health care is better because it benefits the middle class, is totally inconsistent with your complaint that the health-system treats judges better than garbage collectors. Either you want the well-off to be treated better, or you don't. Make up your mind."

Ummm, no. My complaint is not that the system treats some better than others, it is that it is not politically correct to acknowledge this obvious fact, so nothing changes. Anyone who proposes change is shouted down in the name of equality, an equality which is a national lie on the level of naked emperors. Or do you believe that say Belinda Stronach's recent diagnosis, surgery and subsequent reconstruction in the sapce of a couple weeks is typical of breast cancer victims in Ontario? I live in a province where the wait for a diagnostic MRI is 7 months, so pardon my skepticism.

13/7/07 9:51 AM  
Mark, Ottawa:

wsam: The Globe has a number of centre-right people:

Margaret Wente
Rex Murphy
The Ibbithawk (sometimes)
http://www.damianpenny.com/archived/009782.html
Neil Reynolds (pity he's in the RoB)
Marcus Gee

The Ottawa Citizen (owned by CanWest) has:

John Robson (pure right, no centre there)
David Warren (ditto)
Brigitte Pellerin
Andrew Cohen (maybe just centre)

That's just for starters.

Mark
Ottawa

13/7/07 3:23 PM  
Érik Labelle Eastaugh:

Disliker of Grits-

Ok, this is my understanding of your argument. You can correct me if I'm wrong.

Premise 1: The Canadian health-care system purports to be egalitarian. The single-payer system is meant to ensure that all persons receive equal access to treatment, regardless of income levels or social status.

P2: The Canadian health care system produces very poor quality health care when compared to the United States.

P3: Notwithstanding its pretensions of egalitarianism, Canadian health care does not treat all people alike. Some people, like judges (i.e., relatively high income, high education, high influence people [I'm not sure which of these factors you think is important]) have quicker access to treatment than others.

P4: The wealthy manage to secure quality health care by flying to the US and paying for it, which the "middle class" cannot afford (Note: that term does not actually mean anything anymore, except as a descrption of income levels, the limits of which are more or less arbitrary. The term originated as a way to distinguish the commercial class of entrepreneurs from the aristocracy on the one hand and the peasantry on the other. They were often extremely wealthy).

Conclusion 1: Single-payer health care is a bad policy. It fails to produce good health care, and it fails to produce that equality of access by which it is justified.

Conclusion 2: It would be better to adopt a private model of health care, since this would at least provide the "middle class", which in the estimation of Grithater is 80% of the population, with good quality care, leaving the poor to be cared for by the state.

Supplementary gripe: People who criticize medicare get "shouted down" in the name of egalitarianism. This is hypocritical since Canadian medicare is not in fact egalitarian. It is annoying to Grithater because he doesn't like being shouted down.

***

I've done my best to simply restate what you have said in your earlier posts. For the moment, I'll refrain from responding to any of those points, whether to challenge the veracity of your factual assertions or the strength of your logic. I first want to make sure that I understand your position correctly.

15/7/07 3:18 PM  
Grithater:

ELE,

Quickly again since the weather is sort of holding.

P1) Fair enough.

P2) Review the arguments. I have not mentioned the US at all, you have more than once. You may be fixated.

P3) I concur, but I will not delineate. Who you know is what is important, but that is usally a confluence of the factors you identify.

P4) See P2). I have not mentioned the US, you seem fixated.

C1) Argumentative and stupid. Nothing I have said would indicate disatisfaction with single payor. I am disatisfied with single provider. Office visits to MD's excepted.

C2) See C1), and think really, really, hard.

SG) Poor job. Do you talk down to people you don't know on the internet to make up for being pushed around by your spouse? Just wondering.

15/7/07 7:59 PM  
Grithater:

ELE, the weather sucks again.

This argument fails: "Sorry, but your claim to have 'observed' certain facts is not in the least convincing. Even if I accept that you personally saw such a thing happen (and I don't see how that would be possible, since medical information is confidential), it remains nothing more than anecdotal evidence, which is hardly dispositive. Furthermore, nothing in the logic of our system requires that judges receive better health care, so your criticism isn't so much against our single-payer system as against the unethical doctors who let him jump the queue. Finally, I can just as easily counter your 'facts' with my own 'facts', which contrdict yours, and we would be nowhere. Unless you have got your hands on an independant study of some kind demonstrating systematic bias towards judges (or other influential persons), this argument simply cannot be resolved in a rational manner. And since what you say is dramatically out of sync with my own experience of our health care system, my inclination is to remain skeptical of your position."

How does this argument cope with the recent public experience of Ms. Stronach?

16/7/07 9:47 AM  
Érik Labelle Eastaugh:

Ok, here we go.

Regarding my restatement of your argument:

You're going to have to be more systematic in explaining what your position is, because I don't think I understand it. It seems to me that you harbour a number of misconceptions about how our health-care system is set up. We do not have a 'single-provider' model. Most hospitals, and all GP's, are privately administered entities. Individuals have total freedom of choice as to which hospital or doctor to use.

We have a single-payer system, which means that health insurance is publicly funded and universal. It also means that provincial governments set restrictions on the fees that doctors can charge for their services. (There are also restrictions on having private insurance, although under certain exceptional circumstances constitutional exemptions can be granted: see the Chaoulli case). But neither of those things makes it a 'single-provider' system. All of a doctor's revenue comes from fees, and bad doctors can go out of business.

As I understand it, there is some debate about whether we should allow individuals to pay higher rates out of pocket in order to secure more rapid service. But the difference is not who is providing the care, merely who is paying for it.

You say you accept single-payer, and as I've pointed out, we do not have a single-provider system. Given that, I'm not sure what your complaint is.

Regarding the U.S., I assumed you were referring to that country because you said the following:

"In a privately insured system, the broad middle class gets excellent timely care, and the poor suffer the bureaucratic nightmare."

I know of only one privately insured system in the OECD, and that's the US. France allows very limited use of private insurance, but the system is on the whole publicly funded. I seriously doubt that tweaking our system to resemble France's would produce the dramatic improvement in outcomes that you expect.

On the subject of outcomes, you still haven't really made a case for why we should think our system is so bad. Wait times can sometimes be long for certain elective procedures or diagnostics, especially in rural areas. But for essential procedures they are normal for a developed country. Don't forget that Canada has geographic issues to deal with that France or Britain does not, which obviously has an impact on access in rural areas. That isn't the system's fault.

Re: "supplementary gripe"... I'm not sure why you think I'm 'talking down' to you. That certainly wasn't my intention. Maybe you just don't get my sense of humour.

Finally, Re: Belinda: What is it exactly that you think you know about her? We didn't even hear about the issue until she made a public announcement that she's going to have (or had... can't remember) a mastectomy. You certainly don't know anything about how long she waited for an MRI, or where she got it. Moreover, as I already said, wait times for essential diagnostics are not out of line with international norms.

In any case, you've competely failed to engage with the central point of the paragraph you quoted. Anecdotal evidence, i.e. evidence by enumeration of singe instances, cannot possibly resolve a debate about a system that serves millions of people. A single case, even reported in the news papers, is not the "independant study showing systematic bias" that I had in mind.

16/7/07 12:08 PM  
�rik Labelle Eastaugh:

One additional point: you decried the "bureaucratic" nightmare of a public system, which can be avoided through private insurance. Have you any idea what kind of a nightmare it is to deal with private insurers? The bureaucratic obstacles are much greater, since you have to get approval for most procedures (even life-saving ones), and the insurer's profit motive stands in your way.

16/7/07 12:13 PM  
Grithater:

ELE,

Your point about MD's was already covered, if you had bothered to read. "Office visits to MD's excepted". Hospitals private? That kind of slippery slithering around definitions while ignoring reality is what drives people nuts about politics. If that were true in practice, I could open a diagnostic center in my city and immediately go to work on the ludricous queue which exists.......the fact that I can't exposes your argument as a technicality of the sort where greasy lawyers hide. Government is the monopoly provider of healthcare services available through the single payor system. The taxes required to fund the single payor system leave middle class people without the resources to access other care. This makes it a defacto single provider system.

Belinda's announcement was that she was diagnosed, treated and reconstructed over a few week period. This is is not what I "think I know", that is what she said.

16/7/07 6:57 PM  
Érik Labelle Eastaugh:

Ugh. You clearly haven't the stomach or the werewithal for a real argument. I don't know what you do in life, but it clearly has nothing to do with policy. Or logic.

I'll confine myself to pointing out how you've clearly contradicted yourself on your principal argument:

Before, you said: "Nothing I have said would indicate disatisfaction with single payor. I am disatisfied with single provider."

Now, you say: "Government is the monopoly provider of healthcare services available through the single payor system. The taxes required to fund the single payor system leave middle class people without the resources to access other care. This makes it a defacto single provider system."

That's pretty impressive. I'm soon to be a 'greasy' lawyer, and even I certainly couldn't twist my own words around that way. Maybe you find us annoying because we insist on using logic...

Anyway, I'm done with you. You're not a serious person, just someone who wants to vent his anger in public. That's fair enough. But if you as a citizen aren't willing to engage with substance of an issue in a systematic and rational way, don't complain about politicians playing with 'definitions'. You wouldn't be able to tell if they were using the right words anyway.

16/7/07 7:48 PM  
Grithater:

ELE,

You have now speculated about, who I am, my stomach and my "werewithal". Fine. I had read several of your earlier arguments on various subjects on AC's site and considered them reasoned and mature. This one surprised me, as it lacked maturity. Now it seems you are a student, and it makes some sense.

What I do is none of your business, but it interfaces with healthcare and it's funding and provision. You are "soon to be a lawyer". Good for you. If you are sucessful, and live to middle age, you may well end up as a member of one of the better golf clubs in your city. Most of the useful surgeons will also be members of that club, and if you dream that they don't set their schedules there, than you need to dump the rose coloured glasses.

I am a member of the best golf club in my city, I am approaching middle age, and I can jump the queue any time I want. You mistake my complaints as personal when they are not.

I don't find lawyers annoying, I find them useful. Like any other tool. As long as they are paid, they do what they are told, much like a good dog.

16/7/07 8:53 PM  
Erik Labelle Eastaugh:

Sorry, but I couldn't resist.

First:

"This [argument] surprised me, as it lacked maturity."

Then:

"I don't find lawyers annoying, I find them useful. Like any other tool. As long as they are paid, they do what they are told, much like a good dog."

In fact, I'm not a student. And in any case you have no idea how old I am. If you think that lawyers are interested in becoming members of the 'best' country club in town, then no wonder you think of them as 'greasy'.

My comments about you have been based purely on what you've posted on this board. At every turn, you have failed to engage with reasoned argument. In your posts, you have been circular, contradictory, and full of spleen. Hence my conclusions about your reasons for posting.

I assumed, and continue to assume, that you do not deal with policy formation in a professional capacity. If you did, you would exhibit a greater capacity to evaluate the relative benefits of competing outcomes in a rational and comprehensive way, rather than be fixated by the long wait times for elective MRI's for sports injuries and the illusory belief that your 'betters' get more out of the system than you do.

For what it's worth, I never thought your anger was motivated by having been personally frustrated by the health care system. Your anger is too scattered for that. The 'frustration' I was alluding is more Freudian in nature...

Peace,
e.

16/7/07 10:39 PM  
Sean:

Great article AC, I think your best columns are in the realm of economics.
It's always been fascinating to me that so many CEOs and coporate gurus (eg Martin and Mixon) argue against the very same economic policies that allowed their company to ascend and achieve. It boils down to their desire to protect their status once they have attained it. So CEOs are frequently not a good source for advocating economic policy, despite their experience.

24/7/07 3:09 PM