September 26, 2007

The case against first past the post

Democracy, as everyone knows, is a system of majority rule. It is a system marked by free and fair elections between rival political parties, their success or failure depending on the number of votes they can attract. It is a system in which every adult citizen has an equal say in choosing who should represent them.

By every one of these definitions, Canada, under the electoral system in use today, is not a democracy....

By every one of these definitions, Canada, under the electoral system in use today, is not a democracy. We are not governed by majorities, competition between parties is not free and fair, nor do their relative fortunes depend on their popularity with the voters. Most striking of all, we do not give every citizen equal say at election time. Everyone may get one vote, that is true. But some votes count more than others. Some -- most, in fact -- do not count at all.

That is the record of plurality or "first-past-the-post" voting, the system Ontario voters are to be asked to replace in next month’s referendum. Its supporters appeal to a sentiment of “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.” But it is broke, and this is the opportunity to fix it.

Consider some of the results of recent elections. In Ontario, an NDP government was elected in 2000 with 37% of the vote. In British Columbia, the NDP won a majority of the seats in the 1996 election though it received less than 40% of the vote -- not merely fewer than a majority, but fewer than its nearest rivals, the Liberals.

These are hardly unusual. In 26 federal elections since 1921, there have been 16 majority governments elected, but only two that actually commanded a majority of the vote. The rest were minorities posing as majorities, wielding undivided power though as many as five voters in eight voted against them. Supporters of the status quo cite its tendency to produce stable majority governments. But these aren’t majority governments. They’re legalized coup d’etats.

False majorities are but one of the distortions to which the present system gives rise. It is not unknown in this country for one party to take all or nearly all of the seats in the house, with 60% or less of the popular vote -- as happened in B.C. in 2001, and New Brunswick in 1987. The 40% of the public or more who voted for other parties, with other philosophies, were effectively disenfranchised: entitled to vote, but not to representation, which alone gives votes meaning.

Small, startup parties, like the Greens, know what it’s like to be shut out. In the last federal election, the Greens obtained more than 660,000 votes, nearly 5% of the popular vote -- yet they got zero seats. Nor is that injustice restricted to the smaller parties. The 27% of Albertans who voted Liberal or NDP in 2006, but got no seats; the 38% of Ontarians who voted Conservative or Alliance in 2004, but got two seats; the majorities of Quebecers who voted for federalist parties in every election since 1993, only to see the Bloc Quebecois take a majority of the seats -- how much different would our history have been had our electoral system not presented, time and time again, such a false picture of the country?

These anomalies and distortions are reflections of what goes on at the riding level: The winner is not the candidate who receives a majority of the votes cast, but simply the one who comes in first place. With four candidates, it can be done with as little as 25% plus one of the vote. The other 75% of the voters are rewarded for doing their civic duty with … bupkus. All in all, between one-half and two-thirds of all the votes cast in a given election are, in this sense, wasted.

The practice of giving representation only to the winning party is what biases the system against smaller parties, or against larger parties that are in a minority in a given region: a party’s success depends not on now many votes it has overall, but how well it can bunch them geographically. Hence the Conservatives, in 1993, won 16% of the vote nationwide, and were rewarded with two seats, while the Reform party, with 18.7% of the vote, won 52 -- two seats fewer than the Bloc was able to win, with just 13.5% of the vote.

The result is, in democratic terms, chaos. Nobody knows what impact their vote will have, or how it will translate into seats. Indeed, they are often told they cannot even vote for the party of their choice, for fear of “splitting” the vote, but rather must vote for some other party, to stop yet a third from getting in. All we know with certainty is that some votes count for less than others -- a lot less. When 2.6 million federal NDP votes equal 19 seats, as in 2006, but 1.6 million Bloc votes equal 51 seats, it means that each Bloc vote was worth more than four NDP votes.

Phoney majorities, barriers to competition, discrimination between voters -- that’s the case against the current system. I’ll deal with the alternative proposed for Ontario, mixed-member proportional, in another column.

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54 Comments

Anonymous Anonymous:

After doing a fair amount of research on the proposed electoral systems for Ontario, I am leaning towards voting for MMP on October 10th. Your Sept 26th article that references how 27% of Albertans voted Liberal or NDP in 2006, but got no seats, is especially appalling and a strong indicator of the need for better voter representation in the house.

Why then have I not decided on MMP definitively? Its because I struggle with the notion of a smaller party, which for example only receives 5% of the popular vote, forming a coalition with another party (otherwise minority)to hold the balance of power in the legislature. If part our governing body consists of a party that received such a small number of votes (relative to others), how can we claim that this coaliton government trully represents the interests of the voters?

Can you address this concern in your next article...

26/9/07 11:14 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous:

It will probably lead to permanent "minority" govts. The question is whether those minorities would be more or less functional. Maybe more functional since the posturing to increase seat count might be less. Maybe less since there would seldom be consensus on making tough decisions.

We won't know until we try. I, for one, as a westerner, am willing to try somewhere that doesn't matter such as Ontario. :)

While working in Vancouver one of my co-workers was studying for citizenship and came in one morning and said, "Last night I read Canada is 'democracy'. Is lie. Canada is elected dictator." MMP might help prevent that.

Living in BC for many years I observed that the BC political system was a one-bit analog to digital converter - giving a one or a zero output to represent 0% to 100% input.

26/9/07 11:31 AM  
Blogger Aamir:

Bravo Mr Coyne, thank you for highlighting by far the most important part of any electoral system that everyone seems to be ignoring in this debate. The voters.

I have lived in 'safe' ridings as long as I have been able to vote in Canada. FPTP reduces my effective options to one, which is the same as zero. It is an intensely frustrating experience.

In your comments on MMP I hope you take into account how similar systems actually work in places that it is used. A lot of the fears of an unaccountable 'Senate within' and 'party hacks coming in off the list' in the proposed system are completely answered by merely observing the system in actual operation.

The number of list seats any party gets is completely dependant on how well it does locally (the better it does locally the less list seats it gets).

Firstly this means that the number of list seats a party gets is completely different from election to election. Completely unlike the senate any list only hacks in MMP have a very uncertain life span.

Second this means that from a candidates persepective the list is a gamble and the only safe way to get into parliament is through the local seats. This leads to list members of parliament in places as diverse as Scotland, Wales, Germany, and New Zealand opening up constituency offices where they plan to run locally and actually compete with local members to provide representation and service.

Not only are list members accountable, but their presenece leads to enhanced acountability of local members is enhanced throug competition.

This is a well documented phenomenon in systems similar to the one proposed for Ontario.

The experience of the Bill Davis and David Peterson minority governments during some very good times in Ontario should allay the fears of minority government in this province at least.

26/9/07 11:43 AM  
Blogger FDuquette:

To what degree do political parties influence an elected representative's ability to represent their riding? Our system does not exclude the possibility of diverse representation. An MP or MPP can make an effort to represent the riding issue by issue, meet with the electorate etc. find out what the consensus is on issues and vote accordingly.
If there is a problem with disenfranchisement, it is due to a parties' position trumping what the riding wants. The new proposal only entrenches party politics further. I may agree with the NDP position on the environment, but support the Tories on education; how many people actually agree with the complete platform of any party and how can a voter influence a party platform. I would rather vote for a candidate that will serve the riding instead of serving as a flag pole for a party no matter how they get elected.

26/9/07 1:05 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous:

I am not smart enough to understand the proposed Ontario MMP proposal.

Will the top up be based on the local vote percentages or the party vote percentages or both?

Thanks

John

26/9/07 1:17 PM  
Anonymous McGill Cowboy:

Andrew,
Until reading this column I was a complete supporter of the first past the post system, largely because I thought it benefitted my own political preferences. I haven't yet given up faith in it, but your article has laid the first seeds of doubt. Thank you for making me question my beliefs.

Sincerely,

a huge fan

26/9/07 1:18 PM  
Blogger Aamir:

FDuquette

Exposing MPs or MPPs to competition from MPs or MPPs of another party addresses the issue you raise. Not only do you get a local candidate that serves the riding just as now but that candidate also gets held to account by list candidates trying to win away loyalty and votes in the area.

John: The number of seats a party gets depends on the percentage of the party vote it gets in this proposal.

26/9/07 1:33 PM  
Blogger Linuxluver:

Looking at just one issue - climate change it is clear that countries with proportionally-elected legislatures have almost without exception been able to understand the problem and take positive action to respond to it. In particular, the signing of the Kyoto Protocol, limited as it is, was a hue positive step toward global coordinated action. Tough decisions have been made.

It is the countries that do not have proportional voting systems who have struggled to even understand the issue, never mind make the hard decisions that would impact on the special interests that have traditionally had special access to policy makers in one-party governments.

This is just one example of how countries with proportional representation tend to make the tough calls while the FPTP countries are still denying the problem even exists.

26/9/07 3:25 PM  
Blogger Mark Dowling:

Minority governments are not necessarily unstable - the outgoing Irish government had the election call at the end of a five year term, despite one of the parties being far smaller. Ireland hasn't had a majority government for the entire period of the "Celtic Tiger".

26/9/07 4:21 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous:

"Democracy" is a broad term which covers many systems, mostly based on deciding n-ary choices by pluralities. In the special case where n=2, a plurality simplifies to a majority; sometimes the majority is constrained to criteria more stringent than 50%+1. I'm sure you believe Canada's electoral systems offend your particular definition of democracy, but you're fanning in your attempts to beat a straw man if you believe criticizing a system designed to elect regional representatives is in any way a failure because the results don't reflect the allegiances candidates form among themselves.

We have free and fair elections between candidates, and every voter in a riding has an equal say.

Ontario's MMP basically proposes that party members will have an electoral advantage denied to independents. It is legislated inequality. So much for equal benefit of the law. It will provide a place for parties to stick otherwise unelectable party operatives. Pension payoff time.

If Ontario proposed an open list of individuals, the proposed reform might be sensible. Then truly deserving prominent members of society could stand for election. But as it stands the idea is just a golden bridge for unelectable hacks. Parachute and other specially appointed candidates will no longer have to face an actual riding electorate. They will be almost bulletproof. Such a strengthening of accountability.

>When 2.6 million federal NDP votes equal 19 seats, as in 2006, but 1.6 million Bloc votes equal 51 seats, it means that each Bloc vote was worth more than four NDP votes.

It means the people of Quebec don't have to submit to the preferences of voters who are not the people of Quebec. That's a strength. Weaken it at peril to the Canadian confederation.

lrC

26/9/07 4:24 PM  
Anonymous Érik Labelle Eastaugh:

M. Coyne -

A very interesting article. However, while my mind isn't made up on the issue, I do think that you are leaving out some key aspects of the debate by making hidden assumptions.

The first hidden assumption you are making is that, in determining the democratic bona fides of an electoral system, the relevant number is the 'national' or 'system-wide' count of the popular vote. I.e., you are assuming/asserting that the purpose of a representative assembly is to reflect as accurately as possible the overall popular vote. Systems which fail to do this on a regular basis, such as our current one, are therefore not 'democratic'.

You may or may not be correct about this, and I won't pre-judge the issue. However, I don't think you will have met your burden of proof until you've provided some kind of argument as to why total, lump-sum methods of calculation are more democratic than other systems, which break the electorate down into smaller constituencies.

This brings me to your second hidden assumption, which could be stated this way: a right to vote is the same/tantamount/implies a right to representation in the elected assembly. If a system provides some votes with more 'representation' than others, it is treating voters unequally.

In this case, I think you are wrong. A right to vote is a right to *participate* in the selection process on an equal basis with all other individuals. It is not a guarantee that one's views will ultimately be represented in government, or even in the representative assembly. Under the present system, in which votes are weighed on a riding by riding basis rather than an aggregate basis, each vote has equal weight.

It seems to me that your argument ultimately rests on the way you've defined 'majority rule'. According to you, democracy is rule by majority, and a majority is to be measured at the pan-systemic level. Not to be unkind, but this seems a bit simplistic and requires elaboration. You make some persuasive arguments about the practical benefits of a PR system, but ultimately this is a question of legitimacy, and therefore rests on arguments of principle. In my view, your principles in this regard have not been sufficiently fleshed out.

I think that this issue needs to be considered within the broader framework of the Westminster system. That system evolved organically--i.e. it wasn't designed in one shot--and so it may not appear entirely coherent if analysed according to rigid philosophical axioms. That doesn't make it illegitimate or dysfunctional.

One element of that system is that MP's should be answerable to a specific group of voters. While party discipline in Canada has undermined key aspects of the Westminster system, MP's are still far more independant now than they would be if they were named by the Politburo of Party X. If you try to give a Westminster system some of the outward trappings of a Presidential system (i.e. direct election of the government), you screw with the whole dynamic on which it's based (pardon my French).

26/9/07 5:07 PM  
Blogger Werner Patels:

This distortion (and manipulation) of popular will is worthy of a banana republic, but not Canada. Anyone who still supports the current system is either corrupt or an extreme lightweight in the IQ department.

Thank you, Andrew, for catching on to this: I have been saying it for years that Canada doesn't have true democracy because of the way we elect our politicians.

26/9/07 6:35 PM  
Anonymous Érik Labelle Eastaugh:

A further thought:

If one is concerned about the fact that someone can win a riding without winning a majority of the votes cast, the solution to this is not a party-list system, but a single-transferable vote system. I.e. voters are asked to rank all of the candidates in a riding. After an initial count, the candidate with the least votes (i.e. ranking of '1') gets knocked out, and the ballots of people who ranked that candidate first get recounted using their second choice. This process is repeated until one candidate has won an outright majority of votes.

I can't recall the details, but I believe some variation of this system is used in Ireland.

26/9/07 7:47 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous:

Sigh. Alright then, Andrew.

They can take half of everything that I earn. They can tightly control how I spend the half of my earnings that they don't confiscate. They can even dictate to me how and where I can work, and if they want to, they can prevent me from working at all. But just make sure that my slavemasters are selected "fairly", okay? If the majority are not given as near to perfect access to and control over the work of others as possible, then it would hardly be a democracy, would it?

Anyone who still supports the current system is either corrupt or an extreme lightweight in the IQ department.

Yes indeed, you have put your finger on the problem. People are, in general, much too stupid and dishonest for their own good. But we can correct these gross intellectual and moral deficiencies by fine-tuning the methods by which they can gain control over the lives of others. Clearly, Western social democracies are not going bankrupt and facing demographic extinction because they have made everyone's lives and property into a vast Commons Tragedy. The problems are simply due to an imperfection in the way that ballots are tallied and parliamentary seats are allocated. I'm glad it wasn't anything more serious than that.

Thanks, all you dome-headed pundits and Mr. McGoo political wankers. Thanks for looking out for us all. You are paving the way to a much brighter future.

26/9/07 8:09 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous:

P.S. "One Ballot, Two Votes" - if the referendum doesn't pass, the next time, make your slogan:

"MMP - our ballot goes to ELEVEN!"

Cause, you know, more is better.

26/9/07 8:14 PM  
Blogger Aamir:

New Zealand, Scotland and Wales all married Westminster with Proportional representation and none of them are moving back to FPTP.

I am uncertain how party discipline is reinforced in a system that allows party members to effectively revolt against the party elites and start a protest party that will actually bleed power away if they achieve 3% of the vote. More importantly this allows *voters* to effectively turn their back on a party by taking advantage of the greater choice that MMP affords.

Voters are the most important thing in democratic systems. MMP is better for voters.

26/9/07 9:58 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous:

"It is not a guarantee that one's views will ultimately be represented in government, or even in the representative assembly. Under the present system, in which votes are weighed on a riding by riding basis rather than an aggregate basis, each vote has equal weight."

Having lived in BC for many years I found that the government NEVER represented my views. It swung from a right wing to a left wing party each with a large majority at the time. Each, in turn, claiming a "mandate" to pursue an agenda that was further right or left than the vast majority of the voters in the middle wanted. The voters then kicked the so and so's out at the next election so they could get it in the other ear.

Maybe things are different in BC since I lived there, but MMP would have prevented the oscillations I lived through.

27/9/07 12:28 AM  
Anonymous Meany:

I'm very conflicted. There is the NDP hater in me that wants to do anything and everything to throw up every possible roadblock to the NDP ever having any influence in Federal and Provincial politics. But then there is the better side of me that says as a pure democrat, my position here is pretty indefensible, essentially my argument boils down to liking the current system because it disenfranchises my political enemies. Clearly this is not a good thing, we can argue about policy but I think all citizens agree on DEMOCRACY. Oh what to do, what to do. I think I may vote yes. I'm confused. Between this and John Tory's stupid religious schools stance, I've never been more confused before an Ontario election, usually it's pretty easy, vote blue, go home. Done. Not this time.

27/9/07 1:05 AM  
Blogger Aamir:

I've approached this always purely as a voter, a voter who has always lived in safe riding where everyone knew who was going to win anyway certainly which obviously has coloured my views, but as a voter nonetheless.

As a voter I would like to be able to support any party I wish from any part of the province I am living in and have that support be meaningful.

That's why I created www.wastedvotes.ca I have always voted, I have barely ever been heard and I am far from being alone in that situation.

27/9/07 9:36 AM  
Anonymous KRB:

Just read De Souza's reply to your article, and it struck me that our public financing from election results is only party-based. Nothing goes towards the individual candidate (forget the candidate rebates for now). Every vote in our current system is a vote, in different ratio's for each voter, for the party, the party's leader, and for the district candidate.

So why does the vote count only for a quarterly allowance to the party? If De Souza's looking for ways to remove power from party leaders, it would be if individual candidates received a portion of those monies. We all know that in our current system where parties are entrenched, being kicked out of caucus to sit as an Independent most often times will condemn the candidate's subsequent re-election chances.

Off topic, yes, but it just struck me that individual candidate's get zero reward for the votes they had a part in bringing in.

27/9/07 10:51 AM  
Blogger r a:

"[Democracy] is a system in which every adult citizen has an equal say in choosing who should represent them."

A noble sentiment. Does it also apply, one wonders, to the discrepancy in riding sizes, whereby, f'rinstance, Brampton West has a population of around 175,000, far in excess of the 75,000 that makes up the average Northern Ontario riding.

Weeeeeell....you see, it's just a little more complicated than that. When we are talking about equality we don't necessarily mean it in the crude arithmetic sense. And when we recognize voter equality as a fundamental deomcratic principle, we don't mean "fundamental" in the naive sense of taking precedence over any other considerations or interests, or overriding political convenience.

Maybe in his next sermon the Rev. Coyne can explain to the perplexed why voting inequalities because of FPTP are mortal but those because of unequal riding sizes are just venial.

The fact is that if you believe in one person one vote, you should believe that all ridings should be the same size. The conspiracy of silence among "democratic" MMP partisans on this topic, plus the fact that any electoral reform which doesn't address this abuse actually serves to further entrench it - these are two very good reasons for voting against MMP. Leaving MMPs other defects aside, there shouldn't be any changes until riding size is also on the table. MMP fully deserves its imminent defeat.

27/9/07 1:33 PM  
Anonymous Stephen:

The biggest complaint is one of result, not of process. And the result is a result based on context.

Example, if every riding was a ultimately decided by a small spread of less than 100 votes between first and third place would anyone feel like their vote was wasted? At the riding level no. Since they all voted, and their lack of voting may have made a difference, especially if others didnt vote. I think in this case it is reasonable to assume that all people would have flet that the act of voting was worthwhile and that next time the vote counts might split their way

If all of those ridings were not randomly split but 2 of the 3 parties each got 50% of the ridings. All of those people in party 3 would now say, after they looked at the national results that their vote was wasted, even though they probably wouldnt have felt that way if they looked just at their riding.

SO your objection to the current system is that the result is a problem not the process. My objection is to your statement that the current system is not democratic...BS! Becasue of the granularity of ridings we get parties elected at the parliamentary level that ultimately dont reflect the split.

But to say that each of the components MP's was not elected democratically is incorect.

The process was defintiely democratic to elect MP's, because at some point in the system someone must win. Someone must be head of government.

To take this to the absurd level, should the Prime Ministers Office be a made up of 10 people that broadly reflect the proportion of the electorate? If you dont then one party, one individal has the levers of power, how can that be democratic when ineveitably the majority of people didnt vote for that individual. And in PR you never voite for an individual anyway.

We are fixing the wrong problem and a problem that, all due respect Andres, really doesnt exist since all forms of representation have undemocratic elements in them. Preactical fuctioning of the system requires it.

This is about how people "feel" about their participation not their lack of participation. The best analogy I can think of is how few complaints we hear out of BC these days about national elections.

Remember, because they were counted last they felt their vote didnt matter. Because Knowlton Nash would come on with a big smile saying "Its A Liberal Majority" just after the BC polls closed.

The simple change of staggering poll closings has made a big difference. Now BC results come in with some Ontario results etc etc. I still think all votes should be opened at the same time.

Simple change in the presentation of results changed how people felt about their vote. No change in process was required.

I remain opposed to PR in any form because I think the decision should be made at the local level, party lists are undemocratic and open to abuse and PR puts power in the hands of the small parties not the large or medium, in fact the medium parties get squeezed out of influence.

You lose the potential integrating effects of broader parties. Oh by the way, the argumaent that there isnt competition, BS we have had 2 new parties acheive success in 15 years (3 if you count the conservative party) so in fact the Canadian system seems to encourage this innovation, although it happens on a regional basis versus a national basis.....well isnt that just a reflection of the country (much to Andrew's chagrin)

I still see no reason why we must move to PR as opposed to a greater granularity in our ridings, more MP's representing smaller areas.

Sorry to be a stick in the mud Andrew, you make the PR case as well as anyone, but I just cant buy in.

27/9/07 4:26 PM  
Blogger David Newland:

"In Ontario, an NDP government was elected in 2000 with 37% of the vote."

Are you sure? I don't remember the NDP getting voted in since that time Bob Rae was in charge.

27/9/07 4:28 PM  
Anonymous Stephen:

BTW, sorry for the length of the post I will try to be more economical in the future.

27/9/07 4:28 PM  
Blogger AC:

David N. - Ack! Brain cramp. Was of course 1990. Will correct.

27/9/07 5:16 PM  
Anonymous checker:

The biggest problem I see with the MMP system proposed in this referendum is that it enables the party hacks & powerbrokers to ensure themselves perpetual presence on the party list. People won't be able to vote these guys out!

(Unless, of course, everyone conspires to give that party more than their share of seats & therefore no "top-up" seats. :-) )

Any proportional representation system I would support would require all members to gain personal public support in an election before being allowed in the door of the legislature. (There *are* ways of doing this.)

28/9/07 12:56 AM  
Blogger Aamir:

Stephen The problem *is* one of process. The point of voting is to make a difference in the democratic process and gain representation. A vote that makes no difference to the outcome of an election achieves neither. Close contests are a real heart breaker in this because of the sheer number of votes made superfluous.

Further in your hypothetical you are ignoring the plight of voters stuck in safe ridings who wish to make their views heard. This will remain true no matter how granular you make the ridings. Why should these individual voices be forced to subsume into the hive mind of their riding?

Checker: As I showed in my earlier post power brokers and party hacks have an extremely uncertain lifespan in MMP systems. MMP lists work completely differently from other list systems in that the more local seats a party wins the less list seats it gets.

There's no conspiracy required at all, the number of local seats a party gets is an uncertain thing in an election. The McGuinty Liberals won so many local seats in the last election that they would have received very few list seats. Far from being prepetual Libereal list only members would have gotten turfed. The same thing was true of the Harris PCs and Bob Rae's NDP. It's a poor partronage system what would kick out the hacks at the time of a party's triumph.

Local seats are the only safe way to get into power in MMP and that is why in other places that use this system list members, far from acting like hacks and brokers, attempt to build local support by providing local service and representation in order to get into the safe local seats in the next election.

I can provide you with the sources that analysed candidate behaviour in New Zealand, Germany (including its states), Scotland, and Wales that I am basing my comments on

28/9/07 9:50 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous:

Érik Labelle Eastaugh has had the best suggestion so far: any system that doesn't allow majority rule PER RIDING is simply ridiculous. People are still going to be represented by MPPs who can get elected with less than a third of the vote in some cases.

28/9/07 10:10 AM  
Anonymous Stephen:

Aamir,

You reinforced the point by saying that when you lose you are unhappy and now feel you have been disenfrachised but when you win you are happy.

That was exactly my point. Democracy is a process so that people accept a result. By everyone having the same say, in theory, they buy in to the process and we are able to make decisions and move forward.

My fear is that by feeding the I lost but I think I should have won crowd then we just end up in perpetual conflict. There is no final resolution only perpetual log rolling and back scratching to get anything done by professional pols that are on a list.

So people lose....too bad. But I am sensitive to taking that to an extreme. Hence why I think ridings that are too large are the contributors to this. Increase thenumber of ridings, dont let the size per riding get out of hand and you will get something closer to the proper breakdown in votes while maintaining local control and MP accountability.

The examples were to point out that at the local level people generally feel that they had a chance to make a statement. Only when they get the results from others do they feel they may have been ripped off.

But at teh end of the day, it is largely about what the society wants. I dont think we need PR but if the majority feel they want it and it acheives the closure on issues required then ok.

Here is the irony, if PR gets 50+1 then shouldnt the other 49% feel ripped off because their views on the system wont be represented? Just asking.....

28/9/07 11:45 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous:

If the people of Ontario voted for this new system and, after a time it didn't work, or the electorate found their itnerests were not better represented even though the 'process' worked fine, how would we get rid of it? It seems to me that vested interests sitting pretty on party lists and single issue parties who got seats according to the new formula would do their utmost to prevent another Citizen's Coalition with subsequent referendum ever seeing the light of day.

28/9/07 12:01 PM  
Anonymous Mike Jr:

Whether First Past the Post leads to good or bad governments is debatable.

Judging by the last German and Belgian elections, whether the alternative leads to ANY government is debatable.

28/9/07 2:11 PM  
Blogger Graves:

Stephen:

60% is required for MMP to pass, not 50+1.

I'm still undecided though. Reading as much as I can from both sides.

28/9/07 3:03 PM  
Anonymous Érik Labelle Eastaugh:

Aamir - I'd be interested to see those sources you referred to, if you wouldn't mind posting a link or a citation.

That said, I think you need to distinguish between 'making a difference' and 'representation', because those are different things. The problem is that, at some point, someone has to win, and someone has to lose. Even under a PR system, some parties are left out of power and some voters are not 'represented' in government. PR doesn't alter that reality, it just fiddles with the overall outcome a bit.

As Stephen said (and me too, come to think of it) the issue is one of legitimacy, not representation. People have to feel that the government was chosen in a legitimate fashion, which, in a democratic society, means that all adults have to have a role to play in choosing the government. But there are different ways in which you can go about giving people a role in choosing the government, and there are different criteria you can use for evaluating the outcome.

Look at it this way: in a straight PR system, like Israel's, no party wins more than 25% of the vote/seats. Now, on the face of it, this seems to more accurately reflect "voter preferences" and thus is more "democratic". But, even leaving aside the problems with having a pure-list system (which I don't think you're advocating) can you really say that an individual vote in that system makes more of a 'difference' on the final outcome (i.e. who forms the government) than in ours? Nobody "voted" for the eventual coalition that takes power. And even though people might have some vague idea about who would form an alliance with whom, those expectations can very quickly become obsolete in the face of the real outcome of the election and the ensuing power dynamic in the chamber.

At least under our system, parties have an interest in becoming broad coalitions BEFORE the election takes place. Now, M. Coyne dislikes 'brokerage parties' like the Libs and Tories, and in terms of the effect they have on the policy debate in Canada, he may be right to do so. But looking at it from the standpoint of determining how "democratic" our system is, I'm not sure they can be so easily dismissed. At least the overwhelming majority of majority governments in Canada have garnered 40% or more of the popular vote.

Which brings me to another point. Just because people voted for another party doesn't mean that they believe the government to be illegitimate. Hard-core supporters will probably be seriously annoyed every time their party loses, but, except in a few highly charged elections, Joe Blogs probably doesn't care that much, because there's very little difference (aside from personality) between the serious contenders for power. When people in this country are seriously upset with a government, rather than being bored or simply whimsically ill-disposed towards them, that government is invariably brought down.

28/9/07 9:26 PM  
Anonymous John C:

"Democracy, as everyone knows, is a system of majority rule."

I would be more convinced of an argument if it did not break down on the very first sentence. Democracy, emphatically, is not a system of majority rule. Representative democracies are responsible to the entire population.

In practice, this may mean the majority opinion will carry the day, but in many cases it will not, and should not. Slavery, for example, is not a question that should be decided by majority rule.

This basic misconception of democracy is a big reason why I oppose MMP. Despite "False majorities," various unwritten conventions work to limit government power. The role of the Official Opposition and Question Period, for example, force cabinet members to defend their actions to parliament.

My fear is that under MMP, partisanship and division will sneak into our system once a coalition concludes that their 51% share of the vote gives them license to do whatever they want. I can see question period now: "Do you have 51% of the vote? No? Then shut up!"

Unwritten conventions are important. They include:

- the role of the Lt. Governor
- the role of the Official Opposition
- the legitimacy of patronage politics
- the balance of constituency interests and party goals
- the method by which a party chooses a leader (and under MMP, the list candidates)
- the role of campaign finance
- the influence of lobbyists
- the selection of cabinet members
- the balance of power between the party leader and the party, or the cabinet, or the caucus
- the balance of power between parliament and the executive branch

Considering all these factors, can anyone think of plausible scenarios under MMP that would be less legitimate and offer less choice than the current system? But for MMP proponents, democracy seems to begin and end with the electoral process.

On the conservative principles of "do no harm" and an awareness of "unintended consequences," I cannot see any reason to change our system so radically. No MMP for me.

29/9/07 11:45 AM  
Blogger FDuquette:

There may be an unacknowledged assumption that a change in the method of representation will lead to an improvment in its substance; method or system relies on good people: we have to at some point simply trust that those we elect are doing their best but acknowledge that any system we develop will tend to inertia regardless of its original intent. Shake-ups are not only inevitable but desireable to remind those we trust of their role in government.
However, if the method of representation possesses systemic disenfranchisement, that injustice must be corrected.

29/9/07 2:05 PM  
Blogger Aamir:

Sorry for the late reply Stephen, I was out putting up signs yesterday and did not get a chance to respond:

"You reinforced the point by saying that when you lose you are unhappy and now feel you have been disenfrachised but when you win you are happy."

No Stephen, that was not my point at all.

My point is that I think political parties should win and lose, and that political candidates should win and lose. They are competing in the political process.

But I am a voter. I'm not competing in anything; why the *heck* are concepts such as winning and losing even being applied to me? My job is to look at my options, make a decision, and cast a vote. To turn me into a winner or a loser makes absolutely no sense at all. As a citizen in a democracy, I vote to make a difference in how I am governed.

FPTP *denies* me this. It *denies* this to non Conservatives living in Alberta, to Conservatives living in big cities, to Greenies everywhere.

John: Democracy *begins* with the electoral process and it is the point with the most direct connection between voters and parliament. Since there are systems that allow as many of those voters as possible to have an impact then why the heck are we not availing ourselves of that opportunity? This electoral system is 900 years old now, things have gotten *better* since then.

30/9/07 1:26 PM  
Anonymous BlueBerry Pick'n:

"The people who cast the votes don’t decide an election, the people who count the votes do." - Joseph Stalin.


===

can you say "President Gore"?

nah, & nobody else can either.

why? VOTE FRAUD.

gee, & Ontarians are soooo thrilled that someone MORE FAIR is in the works.

but its just a drag & boring to ask a simple question: if we change the "First Past The Post" tally system... how exactly & by what method are we planning to tally votes?

has anybody put *any* effort into the Implementation Plan, or is this all just "I want, I demand... MAKE IT MORE FAIR!!!"

... & somebody else can thrash out the fiddily details"
...


lazy, lazy, LAZY...

come to think of it... remember what happened to the LAST PERSON to ask John Kerry why he didn't contest vote fraud??

"Don't TASE ME, Bro!!

Meanwhile, Harper is authorizing militarized cops to 'protect' him while he negotiates with Bush for Canada's water, sovereignty & oil...

OPEC lies about their oil reserves have been exposed... so, that now Canada is apparently listed as the World's 2nd largest oil-resource nation...

& we're treating the IMPLEMENTATION OF A CHANGE OF VOTE COUNTING... (yes, counting happens after we *vote* for something)... as if we're Jr.High kids scrambling for Class President.

my god, we're out of our depth with this & multinational corporations are licking their chops as we swarm giddily towards something new shiny & oh-so more FAIR....

well, if we can't KEEP democracy, we probably don't deserve it...

i'm sure that's what the Corporate 'Progressive' Conservatives laugh themselves sick over...

I'm sure there are advantages to change... but unless we know **EXACTLY** how secure a new voting system would be...

why the fuck would we change it? that leaves it OPEN TO ABUSES by the first bastards who pounce on our naïveté

wake UP, Ontario. WAKE UP. just because its Canada, doesn't mean fraud won't take place... you have to PREVENT fraud to actually PROTECT from it.

~~~
BlueBerry Pick'n
can be found @
ThisCanadian
~~~
"We, two, form a Multitude" ~ Ovid
~~~
"Silent Freedom is Freedom Silenced"

30/9/07 5:47 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous:

I've often thought the very act of voting allows men and women to have a say and frankly, I don't buy AC's argument that they're "legalized coup d’etats." This boils down to a matter of perception and frankly, any form of MMP requires some measure of goodwill and non-partisanship among elected officials to make a government work. I don't see how the group hug approach AC embraces is going to do anything more than involve our elected officials in Canada's national sport: no, not hockey... going to a committee and building "consensus"... talking an issue to death and never making a damned decision about anything.

FPTP is fair if you get away from the utopian belief that a government formed of God knows how many political entities under MMP will somehow work better than ramming through your program because you have the most seats in a legislative body.

I for one am voting for the status quo... remember, we generally know well in advance how an election is going to turn out anyway thanks to polling up the ying yang. It's not like those going to the booth don't have a clue how their vote is going to play out in the grand scheme of things.

30/9/07 6:31 PM  
Blogger Joe Green:

Well I think that a modified form or first past the post system that ensures a fair distribution of seats in the Provinces is a desirable reform of our electoral laws.

My suggestion is this. Run the same kind of elections as we have now. But when it comes to actually seating the MPs, the modification should assign a number of seats in a Province according to the percentage of popular vote. Thus if the Conservatives in Alberta, win 75% of the vote, they should have 75% of the seats. The winning party fills its seats first. And that is done by first filling those seats where the winning candidates won the highest pluralities. Then the second party, and so on, until all the seats are allocated from what is left.

In previous Alberta elections, the Tories would have been limited to about 17 of the 28 seats, the Liberals would have got about six seats, the NDP about three, and that would have then left two for the Green party. The Party would not have much control over who went to Parliament for their seats, and that would make sure that no one could meddle with the "list" that plagues other countries with PR.

That in my view would go a long way to help reduce the deep political cleavages in Canada, where the Conservativs get all the seats in Alberta and the Liberals get all the seats in Ontario.

The first past the post system is only fair where there are only two contesting parties.

Otherwise we need some modifications to help redress the inherent unfairness in the system.

Any comments?

30/9/07 9:49 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous:

Good idea in theory, but in practice, it means Liberal-NDP coalition governments in perpetuity. As a conservative, I don't see any benefit in that.

3/10/07 4:32 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous:

Joe,
I've thought about that idea myself, and I don't really see why it wouldn't work instead of the 2 vote system being proposed. I guess the advantage of the 2-vote system is that it gives you the option to vote both for the local representative that you feel is best for your riding as well as the overall party that you align yourself with (though one might ask if you prefer the liberal candidate are you *really* an NDP party guy?) The flipside, though, is that the system you describe eliminates the MMP question of (as someone else around here raised) "if the greens get 2% of the riding vote and 10% of the party vote is it so obvious that they should have 10% of the seats".

Personally I have a bias towards more/better local representation and away from overall party politics.

3/10/07 5:26 PM  
Blogger Aamir:

A Liberal-NDP coalition with the NDP getting its way all the time would lead to a Blue Grit revolt in the Liberal party, while if the NDP becomes a Liberal junior yes man would lead to the demise of the NDP.

I used to live in Carrolyn Parish's riding. She was a pretty polarising figure and I'm certain a lot of people in the riding would have liked to not support her while still supporting the Liberals and vice versa due to her actions.

In theory the current system is all about the local representation. But in practice it usually leads to invisible backbenchers in false majorities toeing the party line in service to that false majority.

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