September 22, 2007

The conservative case for electoral reform

On points, I’d give last night’s debate to John Tory. The Progressive Conservative leader was poised, articulate, punchy and surprisingly focused. All in all, he made a strong case for … much the same....

A Tory government would Plan Better, and Spend Smarter. It would also Tell the Truth -- we have his word on it. But in the broad strokes, the government of Ontario would look much the same under Mr. Tory as under Dalton McGuinty. It would do much the same things, at much the same cost, with much the same results.

Oh, Mr. Tory would fiddle at the margins -- cut a tax or two, expand funding to a few thousand kids in religious schools -- issues that both leaders would like you to think show the vast gulf between them. But they’re not kidding anyone. Whoever wins, the forecast is for McGuintory governments, as far as the eye can see.

I’m not blaming either man. Both are simply responding to the incentives in our political system -- notably the method of voting. Sometimes known as “first past the post,” sometimes called “plurality” voting, it should really be called the “winner take all” system, since that captures its most essential dynamic. 

Whoever gets the most votes in a riding, no matter how few, wins; they may only have 25% of the vote, but they get 100% of the representation. Likewise in the aggregate: a third of the vote is commonly sufficient to win two-thirds of the seats -- and all of the power. In such a system, as we have seen, victory or defeat can turn on the swing of one or two percentage points. 

Living on a knife-edge does strange things to people. On the one hand, it leaves the parties in a perpetual fever of anticipation, convinced they have only to gain a few points in the polls to destroy their opponents. That is one reason the two federal conservative parties, Progressive Conservative and Reform, were so reluctant to merge. It is also the reason why minority governments tend, under our system, to be so unstable. 

On the other hand, the consequences of losing a few points makes them excessively, almost neurotically cautious, unwilling to take the slightest risk or advocate the mildest change, but each hugging as close as it can to the median voter, the status quo and each other. Hence the dominance of the two brokerage parties, indistinguishable in philosophy -- alike, that is, in the lack of it.

Put the two together, and you have much of Canadian politics -- viciously partisan, yet unspeakably trivial; much ado about nothing much. McGuintoryism, in short. 

So the case for electoral reform, it seems to me, is one that conservatives, if not Conservatives, should find appealing. It is a cause that has tended, historically, to be identified with the left, not least in the current referendum debate; many conservatives have accordingly rejected it. Yet it is not the left that has suffered most under the current system. It’s the right.

By whatever combination of historical circumstances, the left has a party that will advance its ideas, free of the brokerage parties’ grip: the NDP. Though not often in government, outside of the West, it has succeeded in dragging the entire political spectrum to the left, its policies adopted by Liberal and Conservative governments alike. Nothing like it exists on the right, federally or provincially, nor has since Reform’s demise. Nor is one likely to emerge, so long as “first past the post” remains the rule.

The same is true of parties less easily categorized, like the Green party. Though it is the party of choice for hundreds of thousands of Canadians, it has yet to win a seat, unable to concentrate its support geographically in the way that FPTP requires. How many more votes might it win if potential supporters were not disheartened at the prospect of “wasting” their votes, or worse, “splitting” the vote, as they are forever warned against doing? 

But what if there were a system in which no votes were wasted, where vote-splitting ceased to be an issue? There is such a system, and it’s called proportional representation, of which the proposal before Ontarians is a variant. Not only the Greens, but other parties -- libertarian, social-conservative, or other -- might then have a fighting chance. The spectrum of acceptable ideas for debate would noticeably broaden.

Moreover, because the “winner take all” dynamic would have been broken -- parties get roughly the share of the seats their proportion of the vote would suggest, rather than the highly leveraged payoffs observed under FPTP -- all parties would have less fear of taking risks. True, there would also be less upside: progress would only come by sustained advocacy over many years. Conservatives grouse that a Mike Harris revolution would be unlikely, but so would the NDP disaster that preceded it. 

So conservatives, genuine conservatives, have a choice. Hold onto the current system, and hope for a Harris-style change of government every fifty years or so. Or take a chance on something new, and start changing minds today.

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40 Comments

Blogger Wayneon:

Andrew;

Here's something I posted during the last federal election campaign:

Friday, January 27, 2006
Why would a Conservative support proportional representation?
Sure, the NDP and the Green party get screwed under first-past-the-post. Who cares? Why would a Conservative party, or the Liberal party for that matter, support a proportional voting system?

Canada held seven general elections between 1980 and 2004. The results were two majority Progressive Conservative governments (including the 'landslide' of 1984 in which Brian Mulroney's party received a bare majority of the popular vote, the only modern-era government to do so), four majority Liberal governments under Trudeau and Chrétien, and the Liberal minority government of Paul Martin.

Let's take a look at the numbers.

http://wayneon.ca/democracy/images/WastedVotesCanada1980-2004.gif

'Wasted votes' here means votes for candidates who were not elected. (The concept could be expanded to include surplus votes for candidates who were elected.)

The percentages are indeed horrendous for the NDP. Almost four out of five NDP votes went down the drain. The contrast between the nationally-dispersed NDP and the regionally-concentrated Bloc is striking. The Bloc has elected more MPs than the NDP, with fewer than half the votes.

The Green Party is in a transition state. Although they have emerged from 'fringe party' status, they have not yet elected anyone. Their wasted vote total will go up by about 650,000 with the results from the 2006 election.

But what is immediately clear from this chart is that most wasted votes are cast for the major parties, and the largest group of unrepresented voters are conservative party supporters.

Interestingly, conservative parties received more votes than the Liberals during this period, but lost five elections to two. This had something to do with the fracture of the right into PC and Reform elements, but mostly had to do with the greater efficiency of the Liberal vote in producing seats, and also with regional ghettoization of the parties caused by the voting system.

Let's look at that more closely. Here is the regional breakdown for Ontario.

http://wayneon.ca/democracy/images/WastedVotesCanada1980-2004Ontario.gif

Here we see why the Liberals are the 'natural governing party'. They captured almost all the seats in Canada's largest regional block, with half the votes. Millions of conservative voters were robbed of representation, while the news analysts explained patiently how the Reform Party and Canadian Alliance just couldn’t get any support in Ontario.

Although small parties are devastated by our winner-take-all voting system, we can see that major party voters are also ripped off, and conservative voters are the largest group of victims.

Looking at these charts, another striking point is that even the Liberals and Bloc Québécois, who were strongly over-represented in Parliament, still had significant numbers of wasted votes.

This brings up a central point. Proportional representation and fair voting reform are not about what is good or bad for any political party. They are about what is good for voters. Each of the 40,000,000 wasted votes listed above means a voter who was 'represented' in Parliament by someone they voted against.

Under proportional representation, almost every vote cast actually helps to elect someone. So, the real answer to the question, "Why support proportional representation?", is, "Because it's the right thing to do for Canadian voters."

Wayne Smith

22/9/07 3:13 AM  
Anonymous Rsimpson:

Coyne - The notion of proportional representation keeps popping up, like a weed with its promise of electoral paradise for those wandering in the political wasteland. Electoral Reform is tinkering with the fundamentals of our system of government and fortunately (or not)the arguments for PR aren't sufficiently powerful to seduce enough voters. Unfortunately it deflects our attention from the real issue of getting better government and replacing an old, imperfect system with a new imperfect system is not going to deliver that, no matter how fervent its supporters.

22/9/07 9:05 AM  
Anonymous M. Grégoire:

Does the existence of the NDP "drag the political spectrum to the left", or does the ability of the NDP to elect members show that the Canadian electorate has a taste for left-wing politics?

22/9/07 9:13 AM  
Anonymous Greg Staples:

If you don't me indulging in your comments section I took a crack at arguing against the common conservative case against electoral reform (permanent Liberal-NDP govts) over at my blog (here)
Shorter version is that you can't take present voting patterns and apply it to MMP. Since you get what you reward and MMP rewards differently than FPTP you will get differnt voting behaviour most likely voting for a different mix of political parties so many coalitions can come into play.

22/9/07 9:48 AM  
Anonymous Brian Smith:

Andrew,
You would do well to look at other countries where this system has been applied. For example, in Japan they have a version of MMP for elections to the Upper House. The experience there has been the continuation of the hegemony of the LDP, the world's most successful brokerage party. Party lists for Upper House elections are usually composed of party hacks and celebrities (Avril Lavigne for MP?). All the inclusion of celebrities has done is to increase the number of votes for the established parties more than the smaller parties.

Earlier this year we saw an election in Japan for the Upper House where there really was change. The voters actually supported a party other than the LDP. It subsequently led to the resignation of the Prime Minister in the Lower House. Oh, boy, you say, maybe MMP really works. But alas, I think the only lesson is that when voters want change, they find a way to effect it. The overwhelming victory of the Opposition parties would have been the same in the FPTP system as well.

MMP is not the quick fix you and others believe it to be.

22/9/07 11:52 AM  
Blogger Scott Tribe:

That's not quite accurate, Brian.

2/3 of the Japanese Upper-House are elected from the by single non-transferable vote, and 48 are elected from a nationwide list by proportional representation. THat's called a parallel voting system, and the form of PR they use is not the same as the mixed-member being proposed here in Ontario.

22/9/07 12:05 PM  
Anonymous Brian Smith:

Scott,
Yes, I fully realize there are differences. That's why I described it as "a version of MMP".

Nevertheless, I believe that the lessons learned are the same. An MMP system will likely result in the election of party hacks and celebrities.

Simply put, I don't want a system that lets parties find comfortable resting places for their losers. And we already have enough celebrities. We don't need more as MPs.

22/9/07 1:06 PM  
Blogger Scott Tribe:

Brian:

That's another misconception of yours, and a falsehood that is trying to be perpetuated by the No side.

The MMP systems that are most comparable to the on being proposed, are using democratic methods to pick the list members. Take a look at Germany and New Zealand - they use regional nomination meetings by their members to democratically pick those list members. Why should that be any different here?

And quite frankly even if one of the parties decides to go the party leaders doing all the appointments route, as Professor David Docherty, the Dean of the Faculty of Arts and Poli Sci professor at Wilfrid Laurier said in his recent column, the voters will get to judge the parties methodology of how they picked their List MPP's (which by this proposed law would have to be shown to the voters how they were picked by the party beforehand) and will vote accordingly. That's hardly undemocratic.

Anyhow... there's one good way to kneecap this argument for good. The party leaders should come out right now and say that if MMP passes, their party will use democratic methods to pick their lists.

Howard Hampton has already done so. Premier Mcguinty has been silent on the issue, and most silly of all, John Tory is complaining that party leaders will appoint list mpp's only beholden to their party or to their party leaders.

John Tory knows full well he can, as a party leader with presumably some influence on how things are run in the PC party, end that supposed concern by making that public statement; that he refuses to do so and has decided to ridiculously state that party leaders would appoint hacks, when he himself is a party leader that can stop that, means he is trying to propogate that fear maongst the electorate.

He talks about how Ontario needs leadership. Well, he needs to start showing some leadership on that issue, because so far he's sorely lacking in it.

That doesnt take Dalton off of the hook; he needs to make the same public statement as well. At least he isnt trying to fearmonger over this like Tory is.

22/9/07 1:52 PM  
Blogger D'Arcy:

Lets think about the "potential party hacks and celebrities (Avril Lavigne for MP?)" under a MMP system. The reality is that we already have so called celebrity candidates. Justin Trudeau, Ken Dryden, and Major-General Lewis MacKenzie are just a few that spring to mind. I'm certain that if parties, even small ones, were to attempt this, that the Ontario electorate would be wise enough not to be duped. Further, there is a fail-safe built into the system for such stunts. In order for any party to have any representation, they must reach at least 3% of the popular vote on the party ballots. Based on the 2003 election, where 4,497,244 votes were cast, a party would have had to receive 134,917 in order to place even one person in the legislature. I would hope that we live in a society where people would place even a little thought into their voting, particularly when they have a real option to voice a desire for change. This system very much presents voters a option to take action, to mobilize and while nothing may change in the policy of the day, at least they would have their voice heard. This should not be a partisan issue.

22/9/07 2:55 PM  
Blogger northwestern_lad:

Scott...

You speak of falsehoods, but you are putting your own out there. You talk about how Germany and New Zealand and how they select their lists, but there is nothing in this MMP proposal that forces parties to do anything like that. It leaves it completely up to the parties to decide "if" the lists are chosen democratically. That's not democratic. Also, when those voters cast their MMP vote, they do not who they are voting for on that list. All they know is that by casting that vote for that party, and cannot exactly know what they might get back. Someone voting for the PC's might vote that way because they like a John Tory, but might end up with a Randy Hillier instead. MMP does not allow the voter to clearly demostrate their desires. MMP assumes that all candidates in a party are the same, that you will get the same ideas, views and representation from any candidate, and we all know that is not the case in real life.

Any electoral system should not be dependant on parties to survive, and these MMP seats being proposed only exist with parties. This MMP system needs "parties" to exist, and that's not the way it should be.

22/9/07 3:02 PM  
Blogger Lord Kitchener's Own:

Of course northwestern_lad our current winner take all system ALSO allows party leaders to decide for themselves how candidates will be selected. You can't claim that it is a flaw in MMP that there is no requirement that party leaders select candidates for election through some grass-roots democratic process when our CURRENT SYSTEM has no requirement that party leaders select candidates for election through some grass-roots democratic process. If you are going to argue against MMP, argue agaisnt what it changes, not what it leaves exactly the same as we have today.

Also, when you say that "when those voters cast their MMP vote, they do not who they are voting for on that list" you are being misleading. Voters will know EXACTLY who is on the list, what order the candidates appear on the list, and how those candidates were selected to be on the list. That's all laid out in the proposal. If you don't like Randy Hillier, don't vote for a party that puts Randy Hillier on their list.

See? Problem solved.

Finally, if you don't think our current system needs parties to exist, try running as an independent under winner take all. Good luck!

22/9/07 3:43 PM  
Blogger r a:

This column is overoptimistic in its hopes for change via electoral reform. Canada is left of centre because that is what most people want. Changing the voting system won't alter that.

Further, the current system is not as inimical to conservative ideas as AC suggests. On inflation control, free trade and deficit financing, the conservative viewpoint has triumphed - even if the necessary policies were not always implemented by Conservatives. It has been a long hard road from the bad old days of the dirigiste 70s, and there is still a way to go in terms of conservative economic reform, but we clearly need not give up on the possibility of progress within the existing system.

A fractured parliament, with the Ayn Rand Party holding 9% of the seats and everyone else either left-wing or indifferent to fiscal conservatism doesn't sound like much of an improvement over what we have now.

23/9/07 12:07 AM  
Blogger Aamir:

There is one significant differences between the Japanese system and the proposed Ontario system.

In the German and New Zealand system that Ontario's proposal is based on the number of list seats a party gets is completely dependent on how many local seats it wins. The more local seats a party wins the less list seats it gets. What this means is that the number of list seats a party is entitled to can swings widely from election to election.

The Liberals in the last election would have won very few list seats. The Conservatives under Mike Harris would have won very few list seats and the NDP under Bob Rae would have won very few list seats. List seats under this system are then far from safe spots for party hacks unlike the Japanese system as any party that does well locally will have many of its list only members kicked out.

From a candidate's perspective the only safe way to get into parliament in this process is through the local seats with the list seats being an unpredictable gamble. Because of this in the German style of government list members typically open up constituency offices to try to build a local base of support and in fact compete with local members to provide representation and service. This phenomenon has repeated in the other places that have adopted the German type of system such as New Zealand, Scotland, and Wales.

Here is a quote from a Scottish local MLA about the competition he started facing from list MLAs after Scotland switched from FPTP to MMP.

"It makes my day-to-day work much more demanding and pressurised. However, it also makes me work harder and improves the working of democracy in my constituency. Good for the people, bad for the politicians"

Tying the fortunes of the list candidates closely to what happens locally makes the proposed Ontario system much different and much more accountable than the Japanese system.

Here's another interesting fact. The common belief that big cities in Canada are lefty havens is a complete myth.

In the last federal election in Toronto the NDP got 220503 votes, the Conservatives got 246210. In Vancouver the NDP got 166467 votes while the Conservatives got 178796. And yet we think that the NDP is stronger in these places than the Conservatives?

This is just one of the glaring examples of the ugly distortions of actual voter intent that FPTP produces.

Please see the Ontario section of my website at
http://www.wastedvotes.ca/ see which party had the most votes cast for it that had no affect on the outcome?

23/9/07 2:25 AM  
Anonymous Miles Jenkins:

When you're standing in the polling booth, pencil poised above the ballot, you can ask yourself one of two questions: Which party best represents my personal interests - in which case you mark your X beside the Disgruntled Pensioners Alliance or the Angry Prairie Farmers Coalition, whatever the case may be - or, you ask which party will be best for Canada as a whole, striking the best balance between all the competing interests and regions. I believe voting according to the second question promotes better (not perfect) parties and produces better (not perfect) governments.

Hugh Segal clinched my vote against MMP when he talked about how candidate lists chosen by the parties would allow them to place more women and minority candidates at the top. Yeah, Canadian politics is so overburdened with competence and intelligence that we can afford to empower central elites to override merit with ideology!

23/9/07 12:24 PM  
Blogger Aamir:

Miles, the problem is that in FPTP no matter which question you ask the chances are your choice will have no affect at all on the outcome of the election, just as happened to 51% of the votes in the last federal election. The fringe examples you gave have not appeared in any jurisdiction actually using MMP.

If a party champions merit over diversity or vice versa that gives Canadians a clear choice on which party is better suited to govern. Is it so hard to believe that parties will be able to champion both?

In any case FPTP allows parties to parachute ideologues into safe ridings that they are certain to win anyway, at least in MMP even the voters in the safe ridings can punish the party by effectively voting for someone else.

23/9/07 12:53 PM  
Blogger Lord Kitchener's Own:

Miles, you write: "Yeah, Canadian politics is so overburdened with competence and intelligence that we can afford to empower central elites to override merit with ideology!"

Well, I hate to tell you, but our current winner take all system empowers central elites to override merit with ideology! I don't know what Anti-MMP campaigners don't understand about this, but the control that parties have over the way in which their party will select candidates is no greater under MMP than it is under our current system. If party leaders want to appoint a bunch of women and visible minorities to represent their party in the current electoral system there's nothing stopping them from doing so. Stephane Dion just finished appointing a (losing) candidate in Outrement, and the Liberal party has a stated threshold they intend to meet regarding the percentage of women candidates they will field , that they obviously can't meet if they allow all candidates to be elected by party members through some grass routes democratic process.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, it's not fair to fault MMP because it allows party leaders to appoint candidates by fiat rather than through a democratic process given that FPTP allows party leaders to appoint candidates by fiat rather than through a democratic process. It's like complaining that we shouldn't implement MMP because under MMP the ballots will be made out of paper.

23/9/07 1:26 PM  
Blogger hosertohoosier:

Andrew - you still get brokerage in MMP because you have minority governments. The difference is that the brokerage is between parties, not within parties. Moreover, different wings of the big parties do not hold each other hostage because they have common electoral incentives, being in the same party.

Additionally the nature of the coalition changes over time in FPTP. Once upon a time Toronto was a Tory town, lest we forget.

What is different about MMP is that a small minority of the conservative, liberal or whatever coalition can hold the rest hostage by threatening to leave. Just look at the continued ability of New Zealand First to get things out of Labour.

I am a conservative, but I prefer the safe bet FPTP offers me. Strong majority governments enable administrations to veer to the right if need be anyway, as happened under Chretien and Harris (who would never have come to power under MMP).

23/9/07 1:27 PM  
Blogger Lord Kitchener's Own:

Hosertohoosier may be right that Chretien and Harris wouldn't have ever come to power under MMP.

Of course that's because under MMP the Federal Tories never would have been reduced to only two seats on Parliament Hill with 16% of the vote, and Harris wouldn't have had years of NDP majority government to fix after Bob Rae's 37% "majority".

We never would have had Harris needing to radically jerk the province back to the right, because we never would have had Bob Rae lurching the province to the left with the support of less than 40% of the electorate, and Chretien wouldn't have had the tremendous power he had if not for the fact that FPTP decimated the Tories, despite that fact that they still received 1 in 6 votes.

23/9/07 1:53 PM  
Anonymous Stephen:

Andrew,

I have long been puzzled by your evangelical zeal for PR.

At first I thought it was your inner policy wonk taking over. What political geek wouldnt love to look over the implications endlessly.

I have now become convinced that you know full well the the flaws of PR and that you are embracing them. Meaning, the conservative party wil forever be the minority and the more right wing the more a monority it will be. However there is a hard core for the ideologically pure.

PR rewards the small but disciplined party with disproportionate influence by giving them the key to power because they provide the marginal votes required for a more mainstream party to maintain power.

So it seems you have embracd the minority status of conservatism for now and for ever more and the find the compromises necessary to build consensus at the voter level to messy and complicated. You would rather the accomodation take place between political actors as opposed to political actors trying to accomodate the voting populace necessary to obtain the majority they seek.

This is where we differ. For an advocate of a strong central government I find your love affair with PR puzzling and this is the only explaination I can find to fit the evidence.

At the end of the day PR will bring nothing but heartache and ugliness and we will see the articles talking about how the implementation wasnt done correctly.

It is a waste of time and if implemented will lead to a more fractured and cynical eloctarate, more single issue parties and general degredation of politics....perpetual election, perpetual log rolling and back scratching while supposedly pure single issue parties compormise themselves on issues that arent their focus.

It is a bad bad idea and there is no guarantee that the conservative parties will have anymore influence now than in the past. But you can guarantee that they will be competing with the Yogic Flyers, The anti abortion party, the southwestern farmers party, the autoworker party, the subsidize my industry party, the ban the burka party, the sharia party and anything else that strikes your fancy.

It will be gridlock and lead to more spending and porkbarreling for special interests.

On this issue you are really off the mark.

23/9/07 8:20 PM  
Anonymous Gord Tulk:

Andrew:

I don't think you have ever given your reasons for why the other option to FPTP - a ranked or preferential ballot (PB) - would not be a viable and perhaps even better option than PR.

PBs allow for a consensus choice in each riding - the winner has to get a majority of votes and it allows for the continuation of our geographically-based electoral map. Elected candidates would have a stronger mandate - 50% or more of the voters preferred him or her to any other candidate - and thus hopefully a stronger voice within his or her party caucus.

Thus unlike PR, we would not have slates of hand-picked candidates, and the degeneration of the HOP into a multi-party towers of political babble (their would be no skin-head party, no christian fundamentalist party, no gay-rights party).

23/9/07 10:41 PM  
Anonymous Martin:

With reference to Andrew's comment about having fewer risk taking and playing it safe to win it all, don't see how much would change. Liberals and Tories start pleasing their base during conventions and then run to the centre for elections.

Being in the centre serves the purpose of going after undecided voters, many of whom simply don't have an interest in politics or are simply too busy with work and family life. Their heart doesn't bleed enough to accept overly socialist policies, but are skeptical about "business" and "corporations" and the perceived closeness to the tories. They also do not spend countless hours pondering about the free market principles promoted by the like of a Friedman or Hayek.

If McGuinty and Tory appear similar, that's because they are going after an undecided group in Ontario, which is centre-left for the most part. Tory is a great speaker and appears very competent. Even then, I don't think he has been successful at addressing private delivery but publicly funded health care. Not his fault though, many in Ontario simply get angry at the slightest thought of tinkering with universal health care. Proportional representation is going to result in even less opportunity for free market principles to be implemented. Much like many European countries, you're going to end up with more parties, more behind the scenes negotiations, with more need to obtain tax funds or more regulations to satisfy everyone's wishes, basically more socialism. If John Tory is Ontario's version of Britain's David Cameron, it's because the market he is targeting is socialist. It takes a Mike Harris or Brian Mulroney to come along every "50" years to set forth a change in course. Harsh personalities are often required to make big changes, and then people grow tired of the personalities but the policies tend to live on a lot longer. You're not going to have more Reagan and Thatcher eras to dramatically chang economic and political circumstances by changing to any system. Although the West is moving toward a leftist and anti-globalization trend, this is 25 years after a charming and well-communicating actor and former governor of California took helm and dramatically changed the world. The Progressive Conservatives and Federal Conservatives are much better served by clearly communicating the simple concept of allowing people to be free to chose. With 40%, the conservatives can win a majority and hang on to implement policies that reduce government involvement and give people the chance to be responsible for their lives. With PR, it's simply a road to socialism and an end to freedom.

24/9/07 12:50 AM  
Anonymous Justin:

Actually Martin, Conservatives would get more seats with proporational representation. PCs have been shortchanged of seats due to how First Past the Post throws out votes.

Andrew Coyne hits the issue of electoral reform and MMP right on the head. It's the opposite of what PC leader John Tory has said however, in falsifiying what MMP does. I hope John Tory reverses his position on MMP, especially since like all three parties, the Conservatives benefit from a fair and democratic seat representation (and his colleague Hugh Segal in the Senate has
actually come out in favor of MMP, for example). In the Ontario Citizen's Assembly report, page 12 shows that Conservatives get more votes than seats; MMP would change that lopsided result to an legislature that accurately represents Ontario's electorate, increasing PC seats.

But not only Consertives will be happy, everyone will be happy with equitable seat distribution. New Zealand increased the number of women in their legislature from 1/5 to 1/3 with MMP. MMP crosses bi-partisan lines. Liberals, NDPs, and Conservatives alike support proportional representation.

In the end, it's really the government's fault for not paying for neutral education if this innovative electoral reform referendum fails, doubly since the government set it for a 60% double
majority, and considering BC's failure.

25/9/07 10:19 PM  
Anonymous Justin:

It is a bad bad idea and there is no guarantee that the conservative parties will have anymore influence now than in the past. But you can guarantee that they will be competing with the Yogic Flyers, The anti abortion party, the southwestern farmers party, the autoworker party, the subsidize my industry party, the ban the burka party, the sharia party and anything else that strikes your fancy.

Well, every other country does proportional rep. just fine. Very well, actually. For your idea of fringe parties, there's a threshold of 3% that fixes that. For all the votes Green party claims, they only have 2.8%, ergo even they would not appear on the list candidates.

Read how New Zealand does it: http://www.macleans.ca/article.jsp?content=20070904_155329_1720

Wake up and smell the kiwi

What New Zealand can teach us about proportional representation and electoral reform

Chris Selley | Sep 4, 2007 | 3:53 pm EST

Not that anyone's noticed, but next month Ontarians will decide whether to fundamentally alter their electoral system - voters will be given a chance to choose between mixed-member proportional representation (MMP) and the traditional first-past-the-post set-up (FPP). If MMP wins the day, Queen's Park will join legislatures such as Germany's Bundestag, Venezuela's National Assembly and, perhaps most notably, New Zealand's House of Representatives.

Fifteen years ago, in a non-binding poll, New Zealanders voted overwhelmingly to do away with FPP. A year later, concurrently with the 1993 federal election, MMP was ushered in with 54 per cent support. The reform was fiercely contested, with heated rhetoric from both the pro-FPP Campaign for Better Government and the pro-MMP Electoral Reform Coalition. One of the latter's memorable posters read: "I'd rather live in a democracy with 120 MPs than a dictatorship with 99."


List candidates issue: in New Zealand, they run in ridings and in list, then choose one; they are voted democratically onto the lits (just like riding candidates); they must be submitted to Elections Ontario before the election so voters know how the candidate was chosen, then voters can choose not to support that parties' list candidate.

For everyone who hates proportional representation, what makes you so sure the NDP will never get another false majority like in 1991? Because, back then, they only got 36% of the vote, and yet somehow got a majority government.

That was not representative of Ontario. Neither was the 1994 Mike Harris election representative of Ontario either, or the recent Liberal majority.

BC actually voted in majority for proportional representation, 57% a few years ago, but didn't change the system due to the 60% double majority requirement the gov't set. If all of you don't support this, the PC party will continue to be shortchanged. All in all, it seems like there's just a lot of FUD about this issue that the facts simply don't support.

25/9/07 10:28 PM  
Anonymous Stephen:

Justin,

The first question is whats the impetus for change other than single issue parties and minority parties seeking influence.

Just fine, I'll point to Israel and Italy (before they got rid of it) as places where it doesnt work and leads to problem outcomes.

NewZealand is a fairly homogenous society. PR will not exacerbate other issues or reinforce non existent ethnic fissures. That can hardly be said for this country.

3%....hardly enough. And why 3 and not 10% or 1%....it is an arbitrary choice like any other choice within the system.

Why should 3% of the electorate end up driving their issue, which by definition they will likely be.

Party lists are the other issue. That has been beaten to death. But why dont they just double the number of MPs, puting a cap on electoral representation by riding at 40,000 people. That would yield a similar result without changing how the system works.

Why we have to go to a "new system" is beyond me. The current system can answer the concerns.

The Rae years and the Harris years were going to happen anyway, at least the Harris years were.

Governments of all stripes were getting out of hand on the spending side and the taxes were out of whack as well. Problem is, I dont think a PR parliament can EVER make that tradeoff because the rewards go to the small and marginal not the big parties.

Power is decided at the margin....PR sets that up, in spades. We have enough centrifigal forces in our society we dont need more.

A simpler solution is generating equity in the size of ridings, ie making them smaller and therefore more representative. PR doesnt do that.

I will say again it is a mistake and the Kiwi's themselves will eventually move away from it as their society becomes less homogeneous and if they face another crisis.

PR is for political technocrats, especially Mixed member, that is the worst of them all, who is my rep? How do I get rid of my rep, how would I get rid of a Jag Bhaduria.

I fail to see the quantum gains a change like this should represent.

Tell me what benefit flows to me, my family, my community, my region. I think we are fixing a non-existent problem.

One more economic analogy....why would you engage in certain significant costs to acheive an amorphous and ill defined benefit....answer is you wouldn't unless the potential for the benefit was enormous.

Is PR going to bring us enormous benefits?

26/9/07 8:22 AM  
Anonymous Martin:

PR would result in more seats for the PC's? Perhaps. However, Ontario is too socialist to ever be more than 50% conservative, so this exercise would be useless. If anything, the current system helps conservatives. It allows us to at least get a majority at times. Also, let's not forget that the left vote is split between the liberals, ndp, and greens. On a true proportionate system, conservative policies go nowhere. The current system at least encourages the liberals to embrace some conservative policies by appealing to the middle.

Beyond this point, but completely related, it does not appear that the issue has been debated at length throughout the province. There are MPP's who are still undecided, and the average Ontarian has a minimal clue about what this is all about. As Premier of Ontario, McGuinty should have ensured that this matter was far better communicated and advertised. Even amongst "educated" and "professional" people in the GTA and Toronto downtown core, this issue is nothing more than a head scratcher. A fundamental change to the voting system requires a lot more information than what has been presented so far. This is not a matter of disinterest amongst average voters, this is simply a complete failure on part of the government and elections committee to inform the public about why they are having this referrendum. On this basis alone, I think the issue is void.

26/9/07 8:08 PM  
Blogger Aamir:

StepheN:"The first question is whats the impetus for change other than single issue parties and minority parties seeking influence"

The impetus for change for me is my approach towards this whole issue from the only perspective that matters. That of the voter.

I wish to be able to vote for any party I want from anywhere in the province that I happen to be and I want that vote to have an actual affect on the result of that election. This is what MMP provides to me and FPTP denies me. This combined with the truth that PR systems have not caused chaos in most other countries that use them and the ones that are chaotic would be chaotic under any system settles the matter.

Your fear of small parties wagging the dog are unfounded. Any large party that kowtows to the unreasonable demands of a small party is doing two things:

1 - Displaying weak leadership
2 - Implementing unpopular policies

For this they will be royally punished in the next election and deservedly so. The large party has to worry about its own support and the next election at all times after all.

And the idea that New Zealand has no ethnic fissures is demonstrably false. The Maori minority has long been an issue of note for that country. PR has not exacerbated these.

27/9/07 3:04 PM  
Anonymous JC:

Any chance we'll be hearing this in Canada?

Here's a quote from a speech delivered by DOUGLAS MYERS CHAIRMAN LION NATHAN LIMITED MEMBER TAURANGA NEW ZEALAND BUSINESS ROUNDTABLE 11 AUGUST 1999

http://www.nzbr.org.nz/documents/speeches/speeches-99/wake_up_nz.doc.htm

WAKE UP NEW ZEALAND

"MMP has worked out more or less as many of us predicted. It is a less transparent, less accountable and less democratic system, and has brought politics to new lows.

The public thought MMP would give it greater control over politicians; in fact it has got less and it is now thoroughly dissatisfied. As expected, MMP has led to paralysis and low quality compromise in decision making.

Longer experience with the system will not improve it. The country must be given the opportunity to vote again on it in the next parliamentary term."

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11/5/09 8:07 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous:

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30/6/09 6:12 AM