September 29, 2007

PR: The fearmongers debunked

...we are told that changing the system will result in chronic instability, a series of minority governments, one falling after the other; or else that it will lead to chronic gridlock, a legislature divided into dozens of smaller parties, some extremist, who would use their bargaining power to hijack the political process, demanding that one or other of the mainstream parties adopt their agenda in return for their support....On the surface, the new electoral system proposed for Ontario would look a lot like the current system. The vast majority of members of the provincial legislature -- 90 out of 129 -- would be elected in the same way as they are now: in local ridings, by the first-past-the-post method. The other 39 members would be elected provincewide on the basis of a party’s share of the overall vote, from lists of candidates drawn up by the parties for this purpose. Hence the name: mixed-member proportional (MMP).

For voters, likewise, things would look much the same. You’d mark one X for the candidate you prefer in your riding, as you do now, plus another X for your choice of party. Where the number of members a party elected in the ridings was less than its share of the party vote, the list members would be used to bring it up to par. If, say, the NDP won 15 of the 90 local ridings, but had 20% of the vote -- entitling it to 26 seats overall -- the top 11 candidates on the party’s list would also get seats.

So in one sense, little would change. But in another sense, everything would. No longer would parties win massive “majorities” with a minority of the vote. No longer would a vote for one party count for three or four times as much as another. No longer would new parties with wide support be shut out, in favour of parties with a narrow regional power base -- though they would have to win at least 3% of the vote provincewide to be eligible.

Indeed, apologists for the status quo have more or less given up arguing for first past the post on its merits. The pretense that it delivers “stable majorities” can no longer be sustained: recent elections in Ontario have produced, in order, NDP, Conservative, and Liberal governments, none with a majority of the votes, yet each interpreting the support of its own minority as a mandate to impose a succession of radically different policy regimes on the rest of us.

So instead first-past-the-posties have focused on raising fears about the alternative. These fall into two broad categories: fears about proportional representation in general, and fears about mixed-member proportional in particular.

So, to take up the first, we are told that changing the system will result in chronic instability, a series of minority governments, one falling after the other; or else that it will lead to chronic gridlock, a legislature divided into dozens of smaller parties, some extremist, who would use their bargaining power to hijack the political process, demanding that one or other of the mainstream parties adopt their agenda in return for their support. The spectres of Israel and Italy are often invoked, as if to cinch the argument.

We can dispose of the last easily enough. One: Israel and Italy are uniquely divided societies, and were long before they adopted PR. Two: Neither country has ever used anything like the mixed system proposed for Ontario, but rather adopted much more extreme forms of PR, with no threshold for support.

As for the more specific fears, they would perhaps be more tenable were we the first country ever to try proportional representation -- were it not already in use, in one form or another, in most of the democratic world. But in fact it is, and in no country have any of the scare stories come to pass. 

Germany and New Zealand both use MMP. Their parliaments typically produce between four and eight parties, none of them extremist, with two large centrist parties as anchors. The same pattern is observed in other PR countries: Ireland, Australia, Norway, Sweden, and Denmark all currently have seven parties in their legislatures.

It’s true that these systems do not typically produce one-party majority governments. Rather, they tend to be led by multi-party majorities: stable coalitions, that together command the support of a majority of the legislature -- and, unlike the current system, a majority of the voters. We associate this sort of government with instability only because of the incentives under FPTP, which encourage parties to trigger an election at the first spike in the polls, betting that a 2% rise in support can translate into a bushel of extra seats. Under PR, there’s no such payoff.

As for the prospect of extremist hijackings, that is supported neither by experience nor common sense, depending as it does on a number of increasingly unlikely conditions: that the extremist party has just enough seats to hold the balance of power; that none of the larger parties’ members break ranks, but rigidly vote the party line; that, likewise, the mainstream parties are incapable of voting with one another to defeat the extremists; and, most importantly, that none of the parties, large or small, pays any price for their behaviour with the electorate. 

That’s not what happened in New Zealand, for example, where the New Zealand First party (better described as eccentric than extremist), having made what were regarded as extravagant demands, was thrown out of the governing coalition -- and thumped at the next election. Or Germany, where the Social Democrats and Christian Democratic Union opted to form a grand coalition in 2005 rather than share power with more radical parties.

So weak are these general arguments against PR that opponents have lately shifted their focus to the alleged failings of the mixed-member system. I’ll deal with these next time.

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50 Comments

Blogger whyshouldIsellyourwheat:

//The pretense that it delivers “stable majorities” can no longer be sustained: recent elections in Ontario have produced, in order, NDP, Conservative, and Liberal governments, none with a majority of the votes, yet each interpreting the support of its own minority as a mandate to impose a succession of radically different policy regimes on the rest of us.//

This is a good thing and the main reason why I am opposed to MMP. With first past the post, the bums can be thrown out. With most forms of PR, one can't throw the bums out. Change is possible with first-past-the-post. Change is impossible with MMP.

Most forms of PR also favor tribal politics over big tent politics. With PR, one only has to appeal to ones tribe, and not to the general population. It fosters a system of elite accomodation...the interests of the tribe over the interests of the individual.

Runoff elections or a preference ballot would be preferable to PR, for me anyway.

29/9/07 6:51 PM  
Blogger FDuquette:

Ian Urquhart from The Star (http://www.thestar.com/OntarioElection/article/261461) demonstrates the hyperbole required to make a case against this system, concluding that:

"So we might end up with another Mike Harris who becomes premier with the support of a pro-life party and/or a northern party that is against gun control and for logging in provincial parks.
That's why I'll be voting against MMP in the referendum."

His doomsday scenario has some merit.

29/9/07 7:16 PM  
Blogger bigcitylib:

For the record, most of the fringe right parties that might help realize Urquhart's fears have turned on MMP, partly because they don't think they can reach the 3% threshold (Freedom Party, FCP). They are also worried that Green and "Socialist" parties would be helped.

29/9/07 7:32 PM  
Blogger Werner Patels:

Great column, as always, Andrew. Also great examples to take the wind out of the sails of those who, in their lack of education and awareness about the rest of the democratic world, still cling to the totally and utterly undemocratic first-past-the-post system.

29/9/07 9:06 PM  
Anonymous Érik Labelle Eastaugh:

AC-

Your reasoning is fallacious. You write the following:

"It’s true that these systems do not typically produce one-party majority governments. Rather, they tend to be led by multi-party majorities: stable coalitions, that together command the support of a majority of the legislature -- and, unlike the current system, a majority of the voters."

This is simply untrue. The coalitions you're referring to do NOT command the support of a majority of the voters, unless (as sometimes, but not always, happens) a formal alliance has been declared before the election. The coalition may command the support of parties which, in total, received more than 50% of the vote, BUT THAT IS NOT THE SAME THING AT ALL.

You cannot draw a straight line between PR and 'majority' rule. To pretend otherwise is simply facile.

Both FPTP and PR have problems. Yes, FPTP frequently results in 'fake' majorities. But PR takes the power to choose the government even further out of the hands of voters and puts it in the hands of party power-brokers. You're free to pick your poison, but at the very least acknowledge what you're doing.

29/9/07 9:48 PM  
Blogger Aamir:

Erik, commanding the support of parties which, in total, received more than 50% of the vote is much closer to majority rule than FPTP with its 38% 'majorities'.

How can you argue that FPTP means voters are closer to government when a party can win total power while not being supported by more than 60% of the population?

How can you argue that FPTP means voters are more closely connected to government when voters in safe ridings are not heard at all. I have lived in a safe riding my whole voting life and I am not connected to government at all. And No, a politician who I do no support and in fact whose policies I find to be reprehensible does not provide me with any adequate representation or connection to government.

FDuquette: Urquhart's fear mongering only has merit insofar as we ignore the fact that any government that implements unpopular policies at the behest of a junior coalition partner will get royally punished in the next election. For some reason subsequent elections disappear for people attacking MMP.

WSISYW: Governments change hand in PR systems regularly. Big Tent parties exist in almost every country in the world, they just don't get total power to do whatever they please in PR as they do in FPTP.

MMP allows me to support any party policy and political point of view that I wish from wherever I live. It doesn't mean that political philosophy will carry the day but that because of my vote it will be STRONGER in parliament. What is so wrong about that? Why am I denied that power in our current system?

30/9/07 12:57 PM  
Blogger Aamir:

Also Erik, I just noticed your comment on Mr.Coyne's last article. I'll respond here if Mr.Coyne doesn't mind:

"Aamir - I'd be interested to see those sources you referred to, if you wouldn't mind posting a link or a citation."

Certainly


http://www.keele.ac.uk/depts/spire/Working_Papers/KEPRU/KEPRUPaper20.pdf

Deals with Scotland and Wales. Best quote in the paper comes from a Scottish local MLA talking about the competetion he suddenly started facing from List MLAs.

"It makes my day-to-day work much more demanding and pressurised. However, it also makes me work harder and improves the working of democracy in my constituency. Good for the people, bad for the politicians"

http://www.institutions-democratiques.gouv.qc.ca/publications/mode_scrutin_rapport_en.pdf

Giant of a paper, Chapters 8 and 10 are the parts I drew my statement from.

"The problem is that, at some point, someone has to win, and someone has to lose. Even under a PR system, some parties are left out of power and some voters are not 'represented' in government. PR doesn't alter that reality"

I am in completely agreement that PR wouldn't allow my vote to be represented in [i]government[/i] all the time. But what it does give me is representation in [i]legislature[/i] pretty much all the time.

Government is formed from the legislature. A representative legislature leads to a representative government.

"As Stephen said (and me too, come to think of it) the issue is one of legitimacy, not representation."

And I cannot feel a system is legitimate in which so many votes makes no difference. In which all the distortions of voter intent that Mr.Coyne highlighted are so common.

Votes form legislature, legislature forms government. The first link is fatally flawed in FPTP and since that's the part of the link that I'm involved in the legitimacy of the entire process fails for me.

30/9/07 1:48 PM  
Blogger FDuquette:

Aamir: Sorry, by "merit" I meant to say that the doomsday scenario would be a welcome result, not the end of the world. Merit was a poor choice of word.

30/9/07 2:59 PM  
Blogger Aamir:

FD:
Sorry for the misunderstanding.

What Mr Urquhuhart fails to understand is that the power to punish and reward those in power for their actions does not mysteriously disappear in MMP but is instead enhanced as every voter from every part of the province has an impact unlike the current system in which only swing voters in swing ridings do.

30/9/07 3:49 PM  
Anonymous Érik Labelle Eastaugh:

Aamir-

Thanks for the references. I'll check them out when I have some time.

RE: your other comments, I have a couple of things to say in response.

First, regarding 'safe' seats... I'm afraid that your argument here seems to me a little incoherent. You can't champion 'majority' rule on the one hand and then complain about the fact that the majority in your riding wins every time.

Regarding FPTP, I think you need to be careful not to exaggerate. Since 1921, when 3rd parties became a real presence and broke the Lib-Tory duopoly, there has been only ONE majority government with less than 41% of the popular vote. What is more, the average majority government has won 46.4% of the vote. In case you don't believe me, here are all the results:

1921 – 41
1925 – 47
1926 – 50
1930 – 49
1935 – 50
1940 – 55
1945 – 41.5
1949 – 50
1953 – 50
1957 – minority government (38)
1958 – 54
1962 – minority government (37)
1963 – minority government (42)
1965 – minority government (40)
1968 – 46
1972 – minority government (38.5)
1974 – 43
1979 – minority government (36)
1980 – 44.5
1984 – 50
1988 – 43
1993 – 41.5
1997 – 38.5
2000 – 41
2004 – minority government (37)

Now, in recent years the share of the popular vote needed to win a majority of seats has been somewhat smaller than the historical average. However, I think it's pretty clear that this is due to the shattering of the Tories after the Meech-Charlottetown debacles and the emergence of large regional blocks (BQ & Reform), which was only ever going to be a temporary state of affairs. Reform has already disappeared, and I think there is a clear trend indicating that the Bloc is also disappearing, now that separation seems to be more or less off the table. Even back in 2000, the Liberals were beating them in Qc in the popular vote, but the sponsorship scandal gave them a short respite from oblivion.

So, my conclusion is that we will eventually return to majority governments with around 45-46% of the popular vote. Given the advantages in having a single party elected to power, I prefer that situation to the kind of permanent fragmentation that will occur under even a watered-down version of PR.

30/9/07 7:30 PM  
Blogger Aamir:

Eric:

Firstly FPTP does not require a majority in a riding, it requires a mere plurality. Which is satisfied by results such as these:
http://www.wastedvotes.ca/?q=node/2/Federal/39/57/DISTRICT
http://www.wastedvotes.ca/?q=node/2/Ontario/38/351/DISTRICT

Even ignoring that the concept of having a majority in a riding and majority overall are two completely different things. Especially when the FPTP concept of plurality in a riding denies me representation in legislature while majority overall does not require that at all.

And again I am utterly confused by the idea that only 'winners' should have representation. As a citizen of a representative democracy I vote to make a difference in how I am represented. Why are the concepts of winning and losing even being applied to me? I'm not competing in anything at all.

As always I keep on coming back to my experiences as a voter. The effective options that I have in FPTP elections where I live is one, which is the same as zero. This is not right.

I see the mass of conservative voters in big cities, the mass of non conservative voters in Alberta, and the mass of green voters everywhere that vote and yet are not seen in the halls of power. This is not healthy.

You may be right and the big tent may indeed be on the way back to more efficiently smothering individual voices into the McGuintoryism that Mr.Coyne highlighted in a previous article but I don't really see that as a positive thing.

More effective options means more power to voters and that is what MMP provides.

Coalition governments are doing a just fine job in governing some of the most stable and prosperous countries in the world and have the added benefit of an extra check and balance within the governing body. Something that the federal liberals desperately needed in their 13 year 'majority' reign.

30/9/07 9:00 PM  
Anonymous Érik Labelle Eastaugh:

Aamir -

As I indicated in the thread under AC's last column, I agree that allowing individual MP's to be elected by something less than a majority is a problem. The solution to this, in my view, is a single transferable vote system like the one I outlined in that same thread. For the sake of this discussion, let's just assume that when I refer to FPTP, I mean a variant of that system in which MP's *must* be elected by majority.

Now, regarding the issue of 'representation', I think that your position here is, as a practical matter, untenable. It is simply impossible to provide every single voter with 'representation' in the Commons, at least not in the sense that you mean.

You are confusing the (real) right to vote with a (nonexistent) right to have your vote 'represented' in Parliament. Your confusion is evident when you say this: "As a citizen of a representative democracy I vote to make a difference in how I am represented. Why are the concepts of winning and losing even being applied to me?"

They are being applied to you because a) Parliament only has so many seats, b) those seats must be occupied by individuals, and c) those individuals must be selected through some kind of 'competitive' process. Whenever there is competition, there are winners and losers. It is simply inevitable. But more than that, it's the whole point of a democratic system.

Just because you voted for the losing candidate doesn't mean your vote didn't 'count'. Your vote had the same weight as everybody else. You can vote for whomever you like, and so can anybody else. In a free society, you can't complain about how people exercise that freedom just because they happen to outnumber you.

I think your basic problem with the system is that you think your vote is (or should be) directly applied to the makeup of the legislature. And because another party wins your riding every time, you think that you are not having a 'say' regarding the makeup of Parliament. However, this is to misunderstand how a Westminster system is meant to function. In such a system, voters are not electing governments directly; they elect local representatives who will then choose the government. The province (or the country) is broken down into smaller constituencies. There are no 'national' elections, only 308 local elections. So trying to evaluate the signifcance of your individual vote in relation to the 'national' outcome is to make false assumptions about what the system is trying to accomplish.

30/9/07 9:46 PM  
Blogger Aamir:

Erik, I know exactly what the system is trying to accomplish. That's why I highlighted the damaging side effects of it.That's why I 'm advocating changing it. Since FPTP does not give me a right to have my vote represented in parliament or directly applied to the makeup of legislature then it is an outmoded archaic model made obsolete by PR systems that do much better in giving me that ability.

And as Mr.Coyne showed they do just fine in creating government that is stable,effective and accountable in complete contrast to what the fear-mongers would have us believe. Effective government with more choice and power given to the individual voter. Isn't progress grand?

New Zealand, Scotland and Wales are doing just fine with combining a PR electoral system with a Westminster style parliament. Systems can evolve over time for the better. This is such an evolution.

"You can't complain about how people exercise that freedom just because they happen to outnumber you."

I never complained about being outnumbered at all; what I complained about was my act of voting being rendered completely and utterly pointless by FPTP. I'm not one for being satisfied by the symbolic gesture that is voting in a safe riding.

1/10/07 1:06 AM  
Blogger Aamir:

In fact to clarify one of my statments.

MMP doesn't merely provide effective government with more choice and power given to the individual voter as compared to FPTP.

It provides effective government with more choice and power given to the individual voter compared to FPTP while retaining a heavy amount of emphasis on local representation. Progress truly is grand.

1/10/07 9:29 AM  
Anonymous Érik Labelle Eastaugh:

Aamir -

You wrote this:

"Since FPTP does not give me a right to have my vote represented in parliament or directly applied to the makeup of legislature then it is an outmoded archaic model made obsolete by PR systems that do much better in giving me that ability. "

But this is precisely my point. FPTP represents an entirely different model of democracy from PR. To call it 'obsolete' because it doesn't do what PR sets out to do is to misunderstand the very nature of the debate.

In a classical parliamentary system, people elect local representatives, not governments. It is MP's, and not the people, who determine who shall form the government. In the context of such a system, your criticism, and Coyne's, is simply nonsensical (or rather, unintelligible), because it proceeds from different assumptions about how democracies should function.

The REAL debate, is about which system is more democratic: classic parliamentary democracy, or PR.

There are good arguments in defence of the classic Westminster model. However, one observation has to be made: our system has already been corrupted by the kind of unthinking populism Coyne is displaying. In Britain, and once upon a time in Canada, party leaders were elected by the CAUCUS, not by the party membership. This ensures that individual MP's, even backbenchers with no friends, still wield influence. Consequently, the people of their riding have an effective representative in Parliament, which means that the election matters at the local, and not just the national, level.

However, unthinking 'democrats' in this country insisted that party leaders should be elected by the party membership, rather than one or two hundred MP's. As a result, party leaders are basically impossible to remove, local issues and individual MP's cease to matter, and the 'brand' becomes all important.

The British have the same system as us, and they're not clamouring for a PR system of any kind. That's because the people of that country actually understand how their system is supposed to work and don't try to graft onto it alien concepts.

Now, I'm not a 'fear-monger'. I don't think the sky is going to fall on our heads if we adopt MMP or some other form of PR. However, I've been left utterly unconvinced by the case in favour of it. I think that this debate needs to properly consider the entire Westminster system. Until it does, key issues are being left unaddressed.

You may think that a Westminster system is inherently undemocratic. But I think you need to give a better definition of what democracy is. Giving voters "more power" is patently insufficient.

Consider the U.S. Senate. Alaska, pop. 500k, has as many senators as California, pop. 35 million. Alaskan voters cleary have more 'say' in the makeup of the Senate than Californian voters do. But people accept that because democracy isn't a one-trick pony. It is a balance between a variety of different principles. It can't be reduced to a simply equation between the popular vote and the legislature.

1/10/07 11:21 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous:

Peter:

I like what Erik says. You may vote for Liberal Party 1, but you didn't vote for them to make up a governing coalition with Extreme Environmentalist Party, with the condition of closing all the coal power plants in Ontario.

In other words, you voted for a centrist viewpoint, but your government must cause rolling brownouts to accomodate the enviro-nuts.

As a good point against MMP, one has to look at faith-based schools and today's events. Tory backed down from his proposal, and it's good he did, for if he had gotten elected he would have ruined public education and cost the province billions of dollars.

Imagine the same scenario with MMP. The Conservative Party would have to form a majority with the "Religious Family Party", and as a condition of their support would have to implement faith-based schooling, at great cost to the province.

1/10/07 11:29 AM  
Anonymous SomeGuyInOttawa:

For me, MMP was doomed when it called for an increase in the number of politicians. What a complete non-starter! I've already voted NO.

1/10/07 12:46 PM  
Anonymous Stephen:

AT the end of the day someone has to be the peoples representative.

Someone has to be the head of government.

So Aamir, someone does lose and someone ultimately wins. Where do you want that reflected.

If everyone believed in the Divine Right of Kings as a source of legitimacy of governments then this is what we would be using. Ultimately the people need their say to be part of the process and ideally the process leads to better outcomes that yield a stable and prosperous society where change can happen when necessary.

Plurality vs majority vs STV vs whatever.....at the end of the day what will people accept as guider of the coercive force of collective power (the power to tax, the power to enforce collection, the power to detain people etc etc)

But aamir, winnig has EVERYTHING to do with it. Ultimately someone has to be Premier or Prime Minister. So I dont know know how you refelct the shades of the elctorate in that.

Finally, if your opinions are not broadly shared, what obligation is there for the system to reflect those? The obligation is and should be on the citizen to make their views heard and convince their peers. Anything else is a recipie for people to withdraw to their own opinions and not participate.

Just dont think PR in general is the way to run a successful country. I prefer the local accountability of FPTP in general but would prefer smaller ridings than we have to better reflect things, communities of interest can only be so large geographically.

PR does make sense to me in the Senate if they ever reform it. For practical reasons and reasons that you dont need to repeat rep by pop and FPTP in a second chamber. Assuming you need the second chamber.

Under PR where do you stop the PR? At the MP level, at the cabinet level or at the office of the prime minister's level?

1/10/07 1:00 PM  
Blogger Aamir:

"FPTP represents an entirely different model of democracy from PR."

Well, yes. I looked at the two models and am critcising one and favouring the other. As a voter I advocate the model which gives me more choices and more power. I do not see how that is nonsensical.

I also do not see how it is unintelligible to point out how the FPTP model of democracy renders the act of voting a waste of time in many ridings.

The debate for me is which system gives me as a citizen of a democracy more influence, more of a say, and makes my most profound contribution to democracy, my vote, meaningful. From that sense the choice comes heavily down on the side of MMP.

As to your comments about the Brits Erik, Scotland and Wales have already abandoned FPTP in favour of MMP and are not going back.

If you wish to ignore the voicelessness of significant parts of the Canadian populace (the much mentioned non Conservatives in Alberta and Conservatives in big cities for example) under FPTP then you are welcome to do so Erik. It is to me a profound condemnation of the current system.

Anonymous: As Mr.Coyne pointed out
"As for the prospect of extremist hijackings, that is supported neither by experience nor common sense"
Any party that causes brownouts through its policies will be punished so thoroughly in the polls that it will take them decades to recover. Parties aren't going to suddenly stop worrying about their prospects in the next eleciton because of MMP.

1/10/07 1:20 PM  
Blogger Aamir:

Stephen:
"So Aamir, someone does lose and someone ultimately wins. Where do you want that reflected"

In the legislature. In those competing in the process. Political parties should win and lose, Political candidates should win and lose. Voters are not competing in anything.

"Ultimately someone has to be Premier or Prime Minister. So I dont know know how you refelct the shades of the elctorate in that."

It should be refleted in a representative legislature, which FPTP legislatures most decidely are not. From the legislature comes a representative government (the winning party/parties that need to be made up of representatives supported by more than half of the voting population) and a representative opposition (losing parties) to hold the government to account.

This is unlike the 1987 election in New Brunswick in which FPTP created NO OPPOSITION in the legislature even though 40% of the population did not vote for the Liberals. That was a significant failure of the FPTP electoral system:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Brunswick_general_election,_1987

"Finally, if your opinions are not broadly shared, what obligation is there for the system to reflect those?"
FPTP does not even define what is broadly shared or not. PR systems do through their threshold. If citizens cannot convince a certain percentage of their fellows to vote along with them then PR does not reflect their views in the legislature.

Some of the most successful countries in the world use PR.

"Under PR where do you stop the PR?"

As I said, at the legislature. Elections and votes create legislature. That's where the electoral system comes in. That is where PR allows far more voters to have an influence and successfully so in so many of the world's democracies.

1/10/07 1:39 PM  
Anonymous Stephen:

So it comes down to abandoning a system of local representation for a system of no individual representation, meaning you arent represented locally.

There is an argument to be made that geographic ties and concerns arent relevant anymore. I just havent heard it stated clearly in the PR argument.

What I have been picking at is this ludicous idea that FPTP is not "democratic", it is. PR is democratic in that all people have a vote.

This wasted vote thing is a real issue. It says that the act of voting means nothing unless you win. I have said ultimately someone wins so the argument breaks down, it becoems a question of where you want it to break down.

You get anomolies in all of the systems, absolutely in FPTP and absolutely in PR (no matter the variant)

I still say the case for wholesale change has not been made. There is a round of incremental change to be done first, which is subdividing the ridings to better reflect the responses. Will you still get safe seats...sure....just like there will be safe positions on the party list, anyone up to 15% on any major party is safe.

The only other issue is that there is a flexible use of the dynamic game on the par of PR advocates. On one hand you say the eloctorate corrects, well why wouldnt they correct in FPTP model....To take your NB example, you go from all one party to there being changes.

All one party is never a good thing but the elcotorate corrected and supplied an opposition..

The major objection of PR advocates is that the system consistently produces bad results. This is less apparent than one might think.

Name me a generalized policy that couldnt be implemented by FPTP....everyone has their favourites that arent being implemented, that isnt the point. Name one that people geenrally believe should be done that FPTP is stopping.

However, I cna think of lots of policies that wouldnt have been implemented under PR that have been generally good in the long run that generated opposition in the short run

GST, Free TRade, Health Care, Debt Reduction etc etc.

PR WILL produce more minorities, more log rolling, more back scratching. But at a party level not a local level.

As I have said, the abandoning of local reps solely responsible for an area is the biggest drawback of PR.....

At the end of the day, it ultimately comes down to what people will accept. If PR provides the balm of legitimacy then away we go. I just think we would be heading for uncertain waters without a plan or knowing why we are changing.

1/10/07 2:48 PM  
Blogger Aamir:

Stephen:

"So it comes down to abandoning a system of local representation for a system of no individual representation, meaning you arent represented locally."

Where are you getting this from Stephen? MMP is a MIXED member proportional system and provides plenty of local representation. In fact the Ontario Citizen's Assembly created a version of MMP that has more local members than any other MMP system in the world.

Further, as I noted to Erik, because list seats for the large parties swing wildly from election to election the list seats are a gamble for any serious politician who will have to run locally to ensure the best chance for re-election providing even more local representation.

Additionally any region that feels aggrieved at the hands of the other parts of the province can take the ulitmate step of creating a regional party. If enough people in that region feel left out then MMP allows that regional party to get into legislature. That's the ultimate in local representation made possible by MMP. It is all driven by what Ontarians want as far more of Ontario's votes matter.

1/10/07 3:07 PM  
Blogger Aamir:

Also Health Care and the Maple Leaf flag of Canada were created in minority governments.

1/10/07 3:08 PM  
Blogger Lord Kitchener's Own:

Just a plea Mr. Coyne. Please include in your next column a thorough debunking of this notion that list MPPs under MMP are "appointed" and not "elected".

If I have to explain that to one more person (thanks for totally lying about that btw, Toronto Star) I think my head will explode.

1/10/07 4:19 PM  
Anonymous Mike Jr:

PR Sucks.

1) In Belgium, PM Verhofstadt resigned on June 11, 2007, after the election. No one has replaced him as PM, because the politicians can't seem to figure out who should be in charge. In a 150 seat legislature no one has more than 30 seats, and if all three of the largest parties formed a coalition (they wouldn't, as they hate each other,) they still wouldn't have a majority. And I'm already counting an alliance of two parties as one party, so that's actually 4 parties that make up less than half the legislature.

2) In 2005, Germany couldn't decide on a governing coalition. After a month of trying to form a coalition with the extremist parties that inevitably prosper in PR, the two mainstream parties who hate each other formed a grand coaltion. That's like trying to escape the dominance of Liberals OR PCs only to find that PR forced Germany to see a government of Liberals AND PCs. What a sweeping change.

3) Italy and Israel. Too easy.

4) PR lets the NDP do well. Federally, they're the guys who were on the wrong side of the FTA debate, and would even have been able to block FTA in '88, if a PR system was in place. Think about the consequences of THAT AC. What kind of shape would Canada be in?

1/10/07 8:21 PM  
Anonymous Herb:

In practical terms in Ontario, this whole discussion is beside the point. Whoever was supposed to be trying to sell MMP has done almost nothing to do so. Most people are completely unaware of the referendum, and I'm pretty sure it will fail dismally. That will effectively end discussion of the subject for a generation.

2/10/07 5:34 AM  
Anonymous agitfact:

If you want coalition governments that hang on to power power for 20 years (as in Germany) or 30 years (as in Austria) and fall only because a junior partner switches sides, go for MMP.

And don't be surprised if political parties entrench themselves in all aspects of public and commercial life, because you have surrendered the possibility of throwing the rascals out periodically.

2/10/07 7:32 AM  
Blogger Lord Kitchener's Own:

agitfact,

I'm confused. I thought the big problem with MMP was supposed to be that it led to unstable governments.

Now you're saying it leads to governments that are TOO stable.

I guess opponents of reform really will say anything.

2/10/07 9:42 AM  
Anonymous Érik Labelle Eastaugh:

Aamir -

You said:

"I also do not see how it is unintelligible to point out how the FPTP model of democracy renders the act of voting a waste of time in many ridings."

This is like saying 2+2 = a pile of bananas. You got to have as much of a say as any Liberal or Conservative (or whatever party dominates your riding) in the election. You only consider it a waste of time because the side you voted for happened to lose. The problem here is that you're assuming that the Liberal-ness or Tory-ness of your particular riding is an immutable fact, which disenfranchises non-Liberals or non-Tories. But you can't build a political system based on that kind of assumption. Even 'safe' seats can change hands, like Outremont or Roberval-Lac-St-Jean.

This problem will afflict anyone who holds a minority opinion, in any situation, even with PR. If the Greens are shut out of power and you voted for them, your vote is not 'represented' in government. You may think that you're a bit better off since you have an MP in the House who can make some lovely speeches in defence of Green views, but they are, in reality, totally irrelevant.

Moreover, you are only advocating LOWERING, not eliminating, the threshold for 'disenfranchisement.' You agree that not all views can be represented in Parliament, that there must be a baseline of support (3% or 7% or whatever). How is that any different, in principle, than what FPTP, especially with a transferable vote mechanism, provides?

By the by, the NB election was an aberration and it's therefore hardly a useful example. If you want us to discount Italy and Israel's pathological political cultures in evaluating PR, you should be equally charitable towards FPTP.

In any case, you still haven't responded to my argument regarding the U.S. Senate... It's ok if you can't, I don't mind winning the argument by default.

2/10/07 10:29 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous:

Can we please drop the degrading moniker "first past the post" and at least put it on an equally respectable footing as all the electoral systems people are proposing. I believe the technical term is "single member plurality" or "SMP". Using the term FPTP is a sneering from of propaganda.

2/10/07 1:53 PM  
Blogger Aamir:

"You only consider it a waste of time because the side you voted for happened to lose. "

No I consider it a waste of time because my vote had no effect on the result of the election. Different thing entirely. I don't expect my 'side' to win by getting into government in any system. But I do expect my 'side' to be supported by my vote in legislature. MMP provides this to me far far more often than FPTP does.

"The problem here is that you're assuming that the Liberal-ness or Tory-ness of your particular riding is an immutable fact"

Not what I'm assuming at all. If the safe seat I was living in suddenly became a swing riding then I would know about it because of the news and polls which was definetly the case with Outremont and Roberval-Lac-St-Jean. And I would know that I suddently had a chance to make a difference.

So for the Ontario election we know how many voters will actually have a shot at making a difference to the legislature... 1.5% Haw:
http://democraticspace.com/blog/2007/09/15-of-voters-will-determine-election-outcome

Ignorance truly is bliss when it comes to voting in FPTP elections. If I didn't know what was going on I'd actually think I'd be making a difference by voting. Hah, how foolish that would have been.

And this isn't even the full extent of the problem. Being one of the 1.5% lucky enough to be swing voters in a swing riding isn't enough! You have to be a supporter of one of the competitive parties within the riding to matter.

Conservative and Bloc votes were pathetically useless in Outremont, as were NDP and Lib votes in Roberval-Lac-St-Jean.

Similarly in the upcoming eleciton there are only 30 ridings that are competitive and most of them are two way battles. Pity the supporters of whatever the third party in those places might be. Weep for them. London-Fanshawe is the only tight three way competition in the province.

You can forget about being a Green for sure.

Speaking of whom...
"If the Greens are shut out of power and you voted for them, your vote is not 'represented' in government...You may think that you're a bit better off since you have an MP in the House who can make some lovely speeches in defence of Green views, but they are, in reality, totally irrelevant."

But it is represented in legislature which is a damn sight better than the current situation. Legislature is important.

And the opposion is not 'irrelevant' Erik. The opposition is an extremely important part of the system.

Plus the Greens have a possibility of becoming a valuable ally in a stable coalition.

"You agree that not all views can be represented in Parliament, that there must be a baseline of support (3% or 7% or whatever). How is that any different, in principle, than what FPTP, especially with a transferable vote mechanism, provides?"

Kind of a hard question to answer as we've already agreed the basic principles of the two systems are completely different and are therefore different in this example as well. For one thing FPTP has no concept of a baseline of support at all. That's a pretty important principle and the consquences of FPTP not having it as Mr.Coyne puts it:

"The result is, in democratic terms, chaos. Nobody knows what impact their vote will have, or how it will translate into seats. Indeed, they are often told they cannot even vote for the party of their choice, for fear of “splitting” the vote, but rather must vote for some other party, to stop yet a third from getting in. "



"By the by, the NB election was an aberration and it's therefore hardly a useful example"

It's an example of FPTP in a Canadian province and much more relevant than examples of countries halfway around the world which have systems that are not being considered at all in this referendum. It really was a horrible result in NB though yeah?

Now if I was bringing up examples of FPTP in India or the United States then you'd have more of a point I feel. But I didn't. So there you go.

"In any case, you still haven't responded to my argument regarding the U.S. Senate"

Alright. I am in full support of the concept of a skewed rep by pop as people in rural areas deserve to have some clout in legislature even if their numbers don't demand it.

The only way that 'admission' would harm my argument would be if you assumed for some unknown reason that all I care about is proportionality. Where oh where did you get that idea?

"It's ok if you can't, I don't mind winning the argument by default."

Oh dear, and here I though we were having a nice productive discussion Erik. Should I mention the voicelessness of significant parts of the Canadian populace (the much mentioned non Conservatives in Alberta and Conservatives in big cities for example) that you didn't respond to? Should I consider that argument to be won by default?

2/10/07 2:11 PM  
Anonymous agitfact:

Lord Kitchener's,

This opponent won't just say anything. I happened to work and live in Germany and Austria long enough to see MMP at work. And not being a national of those countries, I did not drink Kool-aid.

Proponents of MMP better find out what they are doing - quick.

3/10/07 8:47 AM  
Blogger Aamir:

Agitfact:

Austria doesn't use MMP.

And provincial governments have hung on to total majority power for way longer than 20 years in Canada while getting the support of less than half of the voters. Worse situation than your PR example as most voters can't even make a difference in FPTP safe ridings.

And I think the German example of a grand coalition is an amazingly inspiring thing and created a great government:
http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/11/biz-07women_Angela-Merkel_34AH.html

3/10/07 10:15 AM  
Anonymous agitfact:

Aamir,

Austria does not have strict MMP: it has party lists of candidates on riding ballots, and you vote for the party of your choice. BUT, voters are entitled to an additional preferrential vote ("Vorzugsstimme") for a specific candidate on a party list. This amounts to a direct vote for a candidate, which is pretty close to direct representation. Hence it is "mixed".

I think it is a bit early to call the Merkel grand coalition "an amazingly inspiring thing and ... a great government." Did you not like the 13-year SPD/FDP coalition (1965-74), the 16-year CDU/FDP coalition (1982-98) - leaving the junior FDP partner in government for 29 years! - and the 7-year SDP/Green coalition (1998-2005)?

3/10/07 12:36 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous:

The article stated that jurisdictions with MMP typically have coalitions.

Are these coalitions able to balance their budgets?

Are they able make difficult decisions when required?

3/10/07 1:39 PM  
Blogger Aamir:

Hi Anonymous

New Zealand has been posting surpluses regularly under MMP.

They also decided to not go to Iraq and also decided to go to Afghanistan. Both difficult decisions to make.

Agitfact: From my reading the Austrian system is pretty different from the German style that Ontario's is based on.

As for the German examples... I certainly would prefer them to the decade long Federal Liberal 'dynasty' under Jean 'Adscam' Cretien that had total power even though it got at one point as little as 38% of the vote. If there was any party that needed another party to hold it accountable this was it.

3/10/07 3:10 PM  
Anonymous BigPolly:

I had no idea which way to go on this but listening to agitfact and mike jr. I'm with the status quo.

It's tough to be a conservative in Ontario and it must be tough to be a liberal in Alberta but it just sounds like PR has too many cooks in the kitchen.

Thanks for the debate

4/10/07 1:56 AM  
Blogger Aamir:

BigPolly: FPTP leads to just one cook in the kitchen and that cook quite often looks like McGuinty or Cretien. I'd really would have liked to have had someone with a wooden spoon whanging them on the hand every once in a while.

No one party has a monopoly on wisdom in parliament and total false majority power has a way of corrupting in any case.

4/10/07 9:01 AM  
Anonymous KRB:

AC, you don't consider the Left Party in Germany as extremist? They're basically the GDR Communist party. The only reason there's a Grand Coalition in Germany is because the SPD refused to include the Left party as coalition partners.

5/10/07 9:56 AM  
Blogger Sparky:

"Consider the U.S. Senate. Alaska, pop. 500k, has as many senators as California, pop. 35 million. Alaskan voters cleary have more 'say' in the makeup of the Senate than Californian voters do. But people accept that because democracy isn't a one-trick pony. It is a balance between a variety of different principles. It can't be reduced to a simply equation between the popular vote and the legislature."
What???
Erik--that's an absured comparison and you're completely distorting the facts (like all arguements I've seen against MMP).
The US Senate is suppose to be composed of 2 senators from every state. In this fashion, in the US Senate Alaska has an equal say as California even though they have a wildly different populaion.
But wait!! How is congress made up? OMG!! Voting districts based on (supposedly) equal population.
If you're using the US as an example, use the right one.
And me thinks that many US citizens would have loved something like MMP back in 2000 when Al Gore had more people voting for him than Bush, but still lost in the electoral college.
As I've been telling friends and family who are confused by MMP and the non-truth sayers such as Erik--If a political party gets 40 percent of the vote, they get 40 percent of the seats in legislature--That's representative democracy.
All the other stuff is obfuscation by people like Erik.

9/10/07 10:34 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous:

Well, Sparky, one could argue that it's only REPRESENTATIVE democracy if each of those seats is elected by and REPRESENTS a voting district, which party lists don't do.

9/10/07 11:57 AM  
Blogger Sparky:

Anon,
One could argue that.
OTOH, with MMP your vote for the local riding is represented by the elected MPP, and--wait for it--your vote for your party of choice is represented by the 'new' seats.
For Ontarians right now, the Liberals--who only received 46 percent of the votes in the last election--have 70 percent of the seats in legislature.
How's that representing anything close to what the voters wanted?
And it always seems to be that way.
Yes it's still 'a democracy' (because we voted and all) but it's not representative or fair. I've always been told that 'every vote counts'. In FPTP, the hell it does.
Moreover, MMP does away with 'strategic voting'--my vote shouldn't be akin to a chess move--"I wanna vote for this guy, but if I don't vote for that guy, the other guy'll get in!". It's ludicrous, at least to me, that I'd even have to think about that when I have to vote. Yet that's all that FPTP offers us Ontarians, at least in my voting history.

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18/2/09 10:54 AM  
Blogger 海盜:

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27/2/09 5:27 AM  
Blogger 原子小金剛:

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4/3/09 11:11 PM  
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12/8/09 4:44 PM  
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12/9/09 3:47 AM